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Full Transcript:

Note: This is an original transcript–edited for sense, length, and clarity.  If you have any questions or concerns, please email our host, Doria Lavagnino, at doria@sheventurespodcast.com.

00:00.60: Introduction

She spent two decades as a mental health professional: First as a certified-life coach and psychotherapist in private practice to expanding her work as the principal and CEO of her company,  Behavioral Health Consulting Services.  She  offers corporate employee wellness to executives and employees alike.  Her focus?  

• Retain talent 

• Ensure job satisfaction

• Reduce absenteeism 

• Manage burnout

 Which I am sure she has seen a lot of as of late.  She focuses particularly on Black and Latinx employees. She is also author of the book Adulting as a Millennial:  A Guide to Everything Your Parents Didn't Teach You 

Asha Tarry, welcome to SheVentures. It is a pleasure to have you on. 

00:55.88 - Asha: Thank you so much. Glad to be here.

Doria: We're living in a time when the workplace is undergoing an extraordinary transition, as we deal with Covid 19. How has that changed your workday personally?

Asha: Oh wow.  Well, it’s definitely made my day slightly more full. I was already in private practice for several years before the pandemic hit and I was seeing a lot of clients individually, in couples therapy, and in group, but during the pandemic– what made my practice shift wasn't more clients but the needs of the clients.This is the first time in my career –and I've been doing mental health work for 21 years– that I've written the most leaves of absences for people from work than ever before. I've never seen so many people lead the path to wellness as I've seen this particular year, so that’s included more coordinated care with physicians and insurance companies.

01:55.42 - Doria: Makes sense.

02:13.16 - Asha: This includes a lot more people seeking respite because of how exhausted they were, and advocating for themselves.

02:18.50- Doria: Do you think that the workplace has changed forever?

02:25.67-Asha: I think it's shifting. I can't say it'll be forever because what I've already seen – and in some ways expected – is the return to grind culture. Between what my clients tell me and what I see is this return to the outside which means people going back out to drive their cars and take the train. So there's a lot of congestion where I live in New York City. So there's tons of congestion here and it seems like more people are here than ever before.

02:55.87 -Doria :Ah. Right? Yes I thought people were leaving [NYC]. Why are there so many still here?

03:02.87-Asha: I thought they were leaving too, so it feels like people returned and brought people with them and that's also now increased the demand to return to the workplace. Several months ago, the conversations I was having when I was doing corporate wellness workshops was, “We may go back or we may have a hybrid schedule.” I'm not exactly sure why this changed, but many clients were coming into session saying their jobs were demanding that they return to work immediately. They went from being home for maybe 16 months to being told within 2 weeks you have to return to work immediately.

03:43.68 - Doria: And the thing about that is working from home –while I understand there are some jobs where it makes sense– one has to be on site, but for so many jobs just the time that you lose in commuting alone  doesn't really justify the archaic view on having everyone in the office all the time.

04:12.35-Asha: Exactly. Now with more people traveling, and more people having transitions that they've recently experienced–. This view doesn't allow for special accommodations. I have clients who are now either recovering from Covid, have long-haul Covid, or are caretakers. I have clients who –as a result of the pandemic –need some accommodations with either working different hours,  a different time of day, or being able to have some flexibility. There are some corporations that are providing this,  but I can sense the hesitation or the fear that folks have if they allow one employee to do this– will everyone ask for this? 

05:09.10 - Doria: Even if everyone asks for it if they need it, right? Let’s go back in time for a moment.  When did you know that you wanted to have a career helping people?

05:11.30-Asha: Oh my gosh, I knew I wanted to be a professional helper since the age of four, but I thought I would be a nurse. I still don't know why I chose that profession as early in life as I did but I always thought I'd be a professional nurse and I actually went to college to become a registered nurse. I thought I would specialize in some type of occupational therapy as a specialty,  but as time went on and I switched my career path I was fortunate enough to still interface with the medical profession, and did a lot of home care, community work, and consultations. But I've known my entire life that this is what I wanted to do.

06:10.24 - Doria: That's lucky.  How did the move to a master's in social work happen?

06:16.27 - Asha: Well the short of it is I failed my exam in nursing school.  I was in my second year and yeah, I think people should know because nursing school is tough and I don't think nurses receive the respect that they're due.

06:22.27 - Doria: Love the honesty.

06:36.10- Asha: I was an academic student,  but after graduating high school and going into college – I went to a college that was prestigious and known for their nursing program. It was rigorous, and I studied around the clock and just barely made it.

06:52.56- Doria: Yeah, It's tough. I know,  It's almost like what a doctor was 40 years ago with all the inorganic organic and organic chemistry, but you know.

06:58.90- Asha: Yeah, absolutely and after studying around the clock, being exhausted, and putting on the freshman twenty I experienced my first round of burnout before I knew what burnout was.  I was super…

07:15.34 - Doria: Yeah.

07:17.90 - Asha: unhappy, and I was afraid to tell my parents. They surprised me. They said, “Look, if this is not what you want to do, figure out what you want to do. Basically, choose your happiness.It shocked me and gave me the courage to look into social work where I got a graduate degree in social work and did postgraduate studies in psychoanalysis.

07:41.15 - Doria: I was gonna say, a master's in social work is nothing to sneeze at. It’s difficult as well. And so as I understand it – I want to make sure that I have this right… You pivoted midway through your career from a private practice where you might be seeing couples, individuals or groups…you went from private practice to now what is more of a corporate and employee wellness. I want to make sure that's correct first. 

08:14.71 - Asha: Yeah, that's accurate.

08:18.17 - Doria: Cool.  Why did you make that shift? Did you see a gap in the marketplace?

08:23.66 - Asha: Well two things just to be as clear as I can be: I still have a private practice of individuals. I don't do couples or group work as much anymore but, the clients that I've been seeing for several years still do trauma-informed work with me and that work is very slow paced.

08:41.92 - Doria: Yes.

08:42.23 - Asha: So I continue to see those clients. I haven't opened my practice in the last several years to new clients. The pivot came when I knew that most people were spending their day and sometimes their night at work.  I started to acutely pay attention to the things that my individual clients in therapy were reporting to me and sometimes my couples were as well. Work wasn't this 9 to 5 or 10 to 6 schedule anymore, but it was more like a 10 to 12- hour shift where people were even picking up the phone or their emails on weekends. As I paid close attention I thought, wow, this is why more people are coming into therapy. It's not only that we're dealing with anxiety and/or depression. We're dealing with a massive fatigue that's happening  around the globe. Folks don't feel equipped to say to their boss, “ Hey, I can't work on weekends, or I can't take on this project. I think there was a time in the workforce where if you said those things you would feel the threat of being replaced.

09:52.77 - Doria: Yeah, absolutely honestly I feel like it's still there personally.

09:58.79 - Asha: Yeah I notice it occasionally. But I think there's much more leverage now with employees being able to write their own tickets. We know from research that the shift towards the way we used to work to more freelance work where people have flexibility and work remotely is where the wave of the future is going. So listening and watching folks become increasingly exhausted and not knowing where there's an out was the reason why I said, “ Well, look, if this is where people are spending most of their time then why not speak to corporations about integrating wellness at work? So people have some sense of agency and confidence in doing their work.  They feel like they belong to a community of people that they work with and have a voice to to speak up to whomever. In some ways this pivot was easier than I thought because I didn't seek out that work initially–that work found me.

10:51.99 - Doria: Right.

10:56.60 - Asha: And I had already been doing workshops and seminars for years in my career but it was in-person. Now, [with Covid] it was remote, so from doing work like this; speaking to the media about anxiety and stress at work and talking to people. That work hit my computer by people reaching out saying, “Oh, I heard your voice here,” or  “I read an article about what you could bring to this Zoom.” Clients asked if we could do this work online, and that opened the gate for a lot of people to want this kind of work done.

11:20.64 - Doria: It reminds me of when I talk to tech entrepreneurs. There's a proof of concept. In your case, the proof of concept was talking to your clients and identifying this shift in the workplace, and so many issues people are dealing with.

11:43.14 - Asha: Exactly. I think if you tune into a few people, you'll get a sense of what's happening to most people.

11:52.14 - Doria: Yes, and one question before we move on. I wanted to ask if you have any tips for people who are solopreneurs who might want to scale to a model like you have where they are working with corporations?

12:30.53 -Asha: Oh, absolutely I'm glad you asked that question because I think one of the downfalls of solopreneurs is being stuck working in a solo practice of whatever industry. It’s a downfall and a health risk. When you work as a solo practitioner you tend to do all the jobs of someone who runs a small business: You're the administrative assistant, the practitioner,  the face of the company, you speak to the media, and you're marketing your business. At the beginning I didn't have the capital to hire assistance. But because we're oftentimes not trained to run a large business,  we don't think about what we could use to run a small business such as hiring a virtual assistant,  investing in a small business coach or adding services that allow you to reach more people by doing group work.  One-to-one work which tends to burn out people faster. So I want people to practice writing short-term goals on how to relieve yourself of doing all the things that you do.

13:50.63 -Doria: Right? 

14:03.80 - Asha: Yes, invest in people who do things that are either their specialties, or that they do with a passion. Do research and find out how affordable it is.  Go online and find contractors instead of hiring full time. There are many people you could hire on a project basis or for a few hours a week to do your social media or your bookkeeping.  Maybe you need a part-time virtual assistant who gives you back time to focus on your work.

14:24.62 - Doria: Yes!

14:39.12 -Asha: Or maybe you’ll have time to market your work differently, or build in services that will reach a broader base of people.

14:43.37 -Doria: Absolutely and another part is opportunity cost.  The cost of doing– say accounting– something I hate, rather than focusing on what might be beneficial to my podcast. 

15:00.11 -Asha : Absolutely. When you're focused on multiple things you overlook the one thing that you can really do well if you put all of your attention there.

15:11.10 - Doria: That's very true. Let's talk about what the media has gone crazy over, ‘The Great Resignation’ for listeners. Can you explain what the term means to you and the catalysts?

15:29.00 - Asha: The Great Resignation is what we know it to be.  It's the mass exodus of employees from the workforce as we've once known it. People are not returning to or seeking employment at corporations unless they offer something that's also going to benefit the employee’s livelihood,  health, and their family life. People have reevaluated what matters to them and wellness matters. 

15:56.41 - Doria: Yes.

16:05.73 - Asha: Feeling like they're a part of a community is valuable and it in some ways goes back to the period where we did leave work earlier. We were home for dinner. We sat at the table with our families. We talked about our day, and we had time to ourselves after dinner. Now, everyone's going from working all day to going to bed because they're exhausted, or sitting in front of the TV. So I love the shift in the way the Great Resignation has allowed people to have a greater perspective and valuation for themselves.

16:27.69 - Doria: Yes, yes.

16:42.38 - Doria: Data always plays a role. The most recent stats is that in the US there are 11 million job openings. There's a 4.2 percent unemployment rate. Is interesting to me that nearly 7 million people are looking for jobs. Low-wage sectors are struggling to find workers and people want  to be earning more.  As a professional helping employers try to retain talent and reduce burnout– What do these numbers mean to you?

17:24.40 - Asha: A lot of things. One, it goes back to what I mentioned earlier: Employees have a lot more leverage than we've seen before to ask for what they want and to negotiate earlier in the process to either look for work,  or be in a job and want to pivot departments or positions. Now I think people feel more confident when they see companies in all industries incentivizing people with sign on bonuses and.

17:59.33 - Doria: Yes.

18:01.73 - Asha: …two weeks off for mental health, extra time to travel. or provide school education credits.Employees can negotiate at the beginning-stage of an interview, and I think that offers employers a different perspective on the value of employees and the importance of making business more people oriented as opposed to more productivity driven. I think you can have both. You have to be invested, however, in the wellbeing of the people who you hire. 

18:33.39 - Doria: Yes.

18:40.69 - Asha: Do vet people. Trust that you hired the people that you thought were right for the job. Work alongside your employees to periodically appraise their work as opposed to waiting a much longer time. Then at your annual evaluation tell people how well or not so well you think they've been doing. This creates much more community and I think it also dismantles that hierarchy of your boss is above you. The idea that there's some mystery person…

19:16.55 - Doria: Right.

19:19.76 - Asha: …in control of your destiny.  I think for a lot of reasons employers are shifting and becoming more humble, and I think this allows people to have more agency over their livelihood.

19:32.19 - Doria: Which is positive no matter how one looks at it because having agency and feeling like you have some control over your life is so important.  I was wondering while I was listening to you, “Do you think more employers are open to upstream appraisals, or employees giving their managers reviews because we're all works in progress.

20:02.28 - Asha: Yeah, I've definitely heard about the latter more.  Recently, in  1 x 1 therapy a person told me that they appraised their employer, and I think that's great. They appraised the company, and they had to rate their manager. Managers need to hear how they're doing from their staff because ultimately managers work for their employees, not the other way around.  For so long we’ve seen [upper management] as untouchable and omnipotent.

20:31.30 - Doria: Yes, yes, yes.

20:41.23 - Asha: And that's absolutely not true. I feel like now this allows for people to develop more mutuality, respect and trust for their working environment. Everyone is coming to work for something. It's not a place where you come to participate in whatever you do for the job, but you come because you want to feel like you're…

20:56.25 - Doria: Right.

21:01.52 - Asha: …contributions matter.  You're being seen, you're growing, you're possibly being mentored.  Should you leave the company or change departments, you feel like you've gone from step five to step ten before you've shifted, and I think that's important, especially for younger professionals in the workforce.

21:18.60 - Doria: You had said negotiating earlier like when you're interviewing. What if someone is currently in a role they like,  but they want to negotiate a better package. I assume you would also advocate for that.

21:39.64 - Asha: Yes, so one of the things I've noticed because I mainly work with millennials and a few Gen X’ers is that millennials are aware of what's happening in the world. They know what people are being paid in other positions similar to theirs. They want to grow,  learn, absorb and be better at what they do. I help clients to strategize with their managers in these areas.

21:58.00 -Doria: Yes, yes.

22:18.19 - Asha: To come at the six month mark to strategize goals they want to achieve, and to work toward those goals so they can inquire within the company about educational credits to add to their resume. Maybe they want to partner with someone  in a different department where they can do things that are a little bit different than what they are doing every day.  This can give people a lot more zest for work, and it's less monotonous. Have a plan that you email your manager, sit down with your manager to discuss it, schedule time periodically.

22:46.49 - Doria: Yes.

22:57.32 - Asha: Check in so your manager can evaluate you progress quarterly, and ask how they feel you're doing with your goals. Be clear about what you're there to do, what you want to learn, and who you want to mentor you, so there is some type of accountability in your meeting. Once you’ve agreed, send those goals to your manager with deadlines for yourself.Set an appointment to appraise those goals, and look for feedback on your progress. I find people want to be rewarded for their work, but they haven't stretched themselves. They haven't accounted for new skills they've acquired. They haven't been studying something that brings value to the corporation or their position. They just want the money they think someone else is being paid, but you need to have clear, defined goals, reasons, and rationale for what you deserve. That comes with being clear about what it is that you're trying to learn, and what you contributions do for your team and the corporation. Have a clearly defined plan for yourself that you share with your manager, so when you have those quarterly meetings you can assess if you've met your goals. Try to ground yourself in evidence, and put some kind of framework around when your goals will be met.

25:05.39 - Doria: I so love that on so many levels. First, it's giving people agency to  look at themselves and decide what they want to do, but that it has to make sense in the context of the organization. There's a bit of back and forth, but it's basically taking your career in your hands and making yourself accountable. When people come to someone with a plan I think it's very much appreciated.

25:44.56 - Asha: Absolutely. I'm so fortunate. I get to work on both sides.  I get to work with people who are employed professionals, and I get to work with corporations on leadership from the leadership side.  I'm able to shift between the two and inform. the other of what the needs and wants are of party.  Since I do that work with my individual clients it helps them see that you don’t show up for work like you went to high school class. Back then, you sat down and someone fed you information. You took notes and took a test. Working is different–it’s about contributing to a greater goal wherever you work.  It's about taking Initiative, being resolution oriented, and task focused. 

26:27.74 - Doria: Yes, yes.

26:43.41 - Asha: That's what companies hire people for, and we know that's never going to change. So be realistic about what you expect, not only of a company but of yourself. Don’t sit like a bump on a log and collect a paycheck every two weeks. You need to put yourself in uncomfortable situations, to participate and to take initiative. Speak up when something happens sooner. Allow your supervisor or manager to get to know you have some professional boundaries, but become visible. Don't sit in the back of the classroom– so to speak– and expect to be seen. Get up, talk, and engage. 

27:21.49 - Doria: Yes.

27:22.88 - Asha: Let people know this is why you're talented, and this is how intelligent you are. You're there to learn and be open to feedback that critiques your work. Don’t personalize it as critiquing you. 

27:35.93 - Doria: Right. I think that's true. I also think–correct me if I'm wrong– sometimes it's okay to be a bump on the log for a little while if you have other stuff going on in your life and you just want to have that six months or year where you're collecting a paycheck–by doing your work, of course. We're all balancing, right?

28:09.25 - Asha: I think we're constantly trying to figure out what works best for us.  I often think of us not being necessarily in balance but being in harmony. I think harmony looks different.  Harmony for me looks more like what's the thing that I can put my motivation, my interests, or my concentration on for the moment.  I think this speaks to what you're saying until I need to shift,  and how will I know  when I need to shift. Sometimes you know you need to shift because the work becomes monotonous, you haven't learned something new in six months, or you are not aware of what's going on in the company.

28:36.48 - Doria: Right.

28:47.21 - Asha: You don't know what your manager is looking for from you. That's why it's important to have those periodic check-ins.

28:52.55 - Doria: Makes a lot of sense. The term ‘toxic' has permeated our lexicon and I'm not saying that I'm making fun of it because I think these things happen for a reason. In terms of workplace, how do you define a toxic workplace?

29:18.92 - Asha: A toxic workplace for me is grounded in the theory of microaggression. Microaggressions are those subtle nuances that occur in communication between people where the person on the receiving end feels victimized and may feel invalidated. 

29:56.43 - Doria: Right.

29:56.80 - Asha: A question such as, “How did you get to this position?” might be a question towards someone of a particular gender or ethnic group that makes them uncomfortable. Someone may ask, “Where's your family from?”  They don't necessarily mean within the states if you appear to be from elsewhere. These can be microassaults…

30:13.70 - Doria: Yes.

30:15.57 - Asha: Toxicity for many people who are marginalized comes across as subtle. It. It feels very assaultive on a person's being.  Oftentimes it’s not recognized by the person who's assaulting the other person verbally and sometimes hard to prove because it's a subjective experience and in the workplace– particularly for people who've been marginalized– whether they're Black indigenous persons of color,  LGBTQ, veterans, or are people with a disability. Any of those groups  are considered ‘other.’

30:37.53 - Doria: Yes.

30:48.18 - Doria: Right.

30:55.70 - Asha: They are oftentimes found to feel the oppression of what we consider toxicity in the workplace. As a result, it's created a work climate that has doesn’t allow for people in marginalized groups to feel they have the opportunity to thrive as  ‘other’ professionals. It's not only toxic in terms of how those systems have endured, but also in the way that it penetrates one’s psychology, their emotional health, their confidence at work, and their ability to be recognized for opportunities for growth.

31:25.40 - Doria: Yeah.

31:34.64 - Asha: Professional growth, development and income. It puts them in a margin much lower than people deemed more respected, knowledgeable, or worthy of these positions that hold power.

31:50.92 - Doria: I believe that one of the stats that you shared with me earlier had to do with PTSD being the most common workplace diagnosis for people of color. I want to make sure I'm getting this right, and it's because of these microaggressions, etc.

32:19.16 - Asha: Yeah, there's are so many things, when I think about professor and researcher Kimberlé Williams Crenshaw coined the term intersectionality which basically means the parallels between two or more oppressed groups. 

32:38.31 - Asha: Be it a Black woman in the LGBT community or a disabled veteran. These groups are often overlooked and are experiencing so much anxiety, self-doubt, and fear of being recognized. What I often hear–especially with women of color – is this push to overproduce or not be validated for their contributions and even in some cases I'm sure women of other ethnic groups and races find this to be true, too. Your work being taken by someone else, and being reported as if it's their own which is fraud. 

33:24.51 - Doria: Yeah, it's infuriating Oh I'm laughing,  but I'm angry. 

33:35.59 - Asha: I've seen it with my own two eyes. I've been in workspaces where that's happened, and for so many people who are in one or more marginalized communities – they’ve experienced it the majority of their working career.

33:41.73 - Doria: Yes.

33:54.79 - Asha: And only until recently didn't know that that was microaggressive, insulting, or invalidating, and didn't have the power to speak out. In most cases, you might be the minority in the office/ department where you work and if you're in one of these industries like fintech…

34:08.32 - Doria: Yes, yes.

34:14.63 - Asha: …where there's probably few women or minorities then your alignment with someone similar to you is going to be  far and few between, so you feel fear around speaking...

34:19.96 - Doria: Yes.

34:33.71 - Asha: for retaliation, rejection or being further isolated. All of those different experiences create hypervigilance around, “ When do I talk?” “Who do I talk to or who can I trust? It creates a sense of mistrust and self-doubt for a lot of people. I think it makes them not only anxious in the workplace, but of course they carry that around in their bodies outside of the workplace, and that gets passed down from generation to generation.

34:59.53 - Doria: Yes, absolutely.  That is resonating with me because I'm dealing with something with one of my daughters that is like this and I've seen how it affects her at home. It can seem benign on the surface and to the people around, but to the person it's happening to it's not benign at all.  So how can a school, an employer How

35:25.87 - Asha: At all.

35:37.60 - Doria: can they do a better job of expressing that the lines of communication are open and that there isn't going to be retaliation or retribution because you come forward?

35:48.82 - Asha: Two things have to happen at the same time. This is very archaic but it works. Sometimes I tell people who express they're not sure to start writing things down soon after they occur, but also bring your notebook. I encourage people to go back to writing things in a notebook and bring your notebook into a meeting and…

36:16.63 - Doria: Yes, yes.

36:28.60 - Asha: …your one- on-one meeting with your manager and recording what the topic was for the hour, or what topics were brought up in the conversation, and who responded. This is how it was trained as a clinician. It’s what we call write progress and process notes where we had to write verbatim as much as we could remember of what the client said.  It works in coaching people, in consulting, and in counseling people to keep a record of contact…

36:52.60 - Doria: Wow.

37:02.32 - Doria: Yes.

37:05.37 - Asha: and whatever steps you took. Who did you go to? At HR did you request a meeting and then give a timeline for a follow up with your manager about a request you made? Maybe it’s other things that you didn't know were available to you to be supported in your work whether it's training etc. Keep a record then send notes to yourself if you're writing them down. If you're creating emails so that you can have a thread– copy and paste it to your manager–so every meeting has a follow-up note describing what occurred, the goals, the tasks, and the deadlines for follow up. Keep track. Okay, because that's going to be the protection you need should you have to escalate a grievance to HR or further to your legal department. Do that repeatedly. For corporations, make it explicit in your protocol and in your employee handbook what policies and practices are in place to protect people.  Make it clear and explicit for employees to take regular mandatory training on workplace aggression, and make it clear what the fixed policies and practices are of the corporation to support people when they have a grievance so there's clarity.  This company doesn't tolerate discrimination, and it's made clear and it's reinforced and it's repeated. So there's this high standard as to what the company's mission is which again has to be people focused.

38:32.48 - Doria: Right.

38:41.61 - Asha: It has to protect the people they serve and have a third-party mediator.  I used to do this in my work with kids and families in the South Bronx where we would have a third-party mediator mediate between two  groups. Sometimes it just  included someone in a different apartment who was neutral that could sit down and hold court – so to speak – with both parties to air their grievances and end the meeting with some kind of plan of action that that mediator would help both parties return to so we could see  progress or resolution. Whatever we're trying to do here to help people  feel as if there's someone else accountable. Leading the the pathway for people to feel there's more liberty for people to respect difference and to be able to speak up when they feel disrespected or invalidated at work. I don't want to encourage this idea that we're trying to threaten people, right? So in some ways people may be interpreting it as such, but I think what we need instead is…

39:53.40 - Doria: Right.

39:57.64 - Asha: for the power dynamic that often occurs between two groups of people to not be complicit that things are tolerated in the workplace since it has been for so long without being addressed and having real policies in place. So, address it early and continually.

40:16.36 - Doria: Yes, and with that in mind we've talked about burnout. We've talked about microaggressions. Are there certain issues that you hear expressed resoundingly with your employees. And then I'm curious about employers as well.

40:38.47 - Asha: Yeah, so some of the expressed needs and concerns of employees are wanting to have their work respected for the contributions that they made–something I've been saying throughout this entire conversation– and that there's equity.

40:53.42 - Doria: Yes, yep.

40:57.80 - Asha: Everyone is given an opportunity to shine. For those people who might be a little bit more introverted– it's important to subtly acknowledge one to one what they are doing.

41:15.59 - Doria: Yes.

41:16.90 - Asha: Acknowledging people's contributions is number one.  It's what every employee needs, but it's often what marginalized people feel doesn't occur. The other is being rewarded for contributions, particularly when a person has brought something more to the table than just their basic responsibilities in their role at work. So,, being compensated. There's.

41:50.67 - Doria: Yes.

41:52.56 - Asha: So many times I've noticed where employees are spending extra hours at work or taking on other peoples’ jobs when the company loses employees, and there's no conversation around compensation. Compensation doesn't always include financial compensation but it can and it should be about…

42:07.78 - Doria: Right? It should? yeah yes.

42:12.35 - Asha: …comping your time if you're going to spend three hours at work. Why not come in three hours later, shave it off at the end of your day/week, or add it to your PTO. Being able to negotiate what compensation means could help people who have vulnerability to burn out,  not to burn out.  That’s what they are complaining about from the employee side. On the employer side, I think there's a mystery as to what employees are experiencing outside of work that comes into work with them. That goes both ways: Employees not being forthcoming with their managers earlier on when there's a shift in their lives outside of work that affects their mental health. Sometimes the employer seems to lack interest, or lack emotional intelligence about what's appropriate. You know, ‘What's the appropriate question to ask an employee if I notice that there seems to be something different. How do I ask and when do I ask to be respectful of their privacy.”

43:22.25 - Doria: Right.

43:28.78 - Asha: If you're not aware of those boundaries at work– You may avoid them, especially if you have a personality that's more avoidant. For the employer, it's important to be genuinely curious about your employees. Do group checks with people… 

43:36.83 - Doria: Yes, yes.

43:48.78 - Asha: …but also periodic individual check-ins with people to not just sit and talk about work but really talk about where we are in the world.  How are we impacted by it?  What's going on in the community which marginalized people deal with?

43:58.19 - Doria: Yes.

44:07.98 - Asha: How is that impacting how they show up to work and what can the company offer to help?  What kind of resources are available that haven't been highlighted to be tapped into? Be kind, curious, and intrinsically attentive,  and do it in such a way that people don’t feel like you're hounding them for information, but that your door is open.

44:35.40 - Doria: Right? It's genuine and authentic. Absolutely.  That's given me so much to think about at once. Small business owners are in a tough place –for example startup culture– you know,  we're strapped for cash so we are going to pay you with equity. As a result, there is no HR. 

My question is how can small businesses boost the morale  their employees. This is a tough question for me to ask: I'm wondering if you can pay someone only a certain amount and you're upfront with them. You're honest with them.

45:20.30 - Asha: Um.

45:34.66 - Doria: Small businesses don't have the resources of –say– you! Where can they look for resources?

45:46.81 - Asha: Where can a small business owner look for resources? Well, it depends on what resources you're looking for. As a small business owner,  it wasn't clear to me when I founded my company almost 8 years ago what I needed. I was so thrilled to have a skill that was marketable.

46:02.97 - Doria: Right? yes.

46:04.96 - Asha: I was eager to learn the different parts of running a company. I didn't go to B-school, but I learned by being adjacent to other people. Yeah by doing it exactly and being adjacent to other people who had small businesses, mostly private practices.

46:17.78 - Doria: Doing it.

46:26.77 - Asha: And I asked people a lot of questions. At that time – 8 years ago –the people I spoke to were a lot older than me. They ran small practices and they had the mentality of you do it all. Bookkeeping, clinical notes, making your appointments. I thought that was absurd, so I started to do community research and I found the Small Business Administration (SBA)

46:50.97 - Doria: Yeah, so helpful.

47:05.34 - Asha: Coming from a family like mine– with no small business owners – everyone worked for someone else their entire career. I did community research to find what was available in the community. I learned about the SBA, and free courses offered by experts in…

47:15.45 - Doria: Right.

47:24.38 - Asha: …various industries. I learned how to do a financial plan, write a business plan, manage my social media initially, and as I grew I stayed involved with these topics, so I knew the developments in grants for small businesses or a small minority-owned business then I would also tap into other resources. All these things are pro bono in community-based businesses and you'll be surprised even asking or cold calling people, as I once did, for resources like if I saw an organization that was in my community and they had been thriving for x number of years, had a large clientele, I would inquire if I could have a meeting with the person who was the practitioner there or someone in the organization that could sit with me and give me some guidance. 

47:51.91 - Doria: Yes, mentorship is so important.

48:08.44 - Asha: Everything is now online, but I'll still encourage my colleagues to book a fifteen minute date with someone on LinkedIn. Be clear about what you learned about them, why you are reaching out, and how much time you need. Have three or four questions prepared to ask in that meeting. Be aggressive.

48:42.16 - Doria: I Love that.  Yes, yeah.

48:47.46 - Asha: Some people are too shy about asking strangers for help. The worst they could say is ‘no,’ or they could ignore you. So what.

48:51.68 - Doria: Yeah, exactly. It's so true. That has made my day. I'm gonna do it after this podcast. Okay…

49:01.61 - Asha: It helps tremendously. But we need more of that.

49:10.28 - Doria: Completely agree and LinkedIn is a great resource. As we end the podcast I want to touch on an important topic and one that I know is close to your heart: Workplace discrimination. You work closely with Black and Latinx job workers /professionals and one of the data points I found was from Glassdoor. Nearly half of black and Hispanic job seekers and employees have quit jobs after witnessing or experiencing discrimination at work. First, it was shocking to me, and that was compared with 38 percent of white employees – they don't say whether they’re men or or women. But since you do specialize in working with Black and Latinx employees: How prevalent is this stat based on what you're seeing and hearing and have you experienced it yourself.

49:42.80 - Asha: And here.

50:25.90 - Asha: Ah, yes, yes, and yes, but that's the short of it I would say quickly I have seen it. I've seen it in phases. So this is what I mean, Doria, when I see in phases I've seen because I'm a participant.

50:28.36 - Doria: Ah, that's the short answer. 

50:44.70 - Asha: I've seen employees of color come to me for leaves of absence, as I mentioned earlier. Those leaves of absence generally start with short-term leave, but they advance to long-term leave. Long-term leave may mean that people are disabled by work, and they can't return. So when someone applies for a short-term disability, they may be able to take four and a half to six months of leave from their job if their job duties exacerbate their symptoms, and the job will replace their income by a third party vendor i.e) an insurance company that will then provide for income, not necessarily at 100 percent, often 60 to 80 percent for several weeks.  When they don't return to work after four and a half or six months of leave and their symptoms remain the same or worsen– they have to go into long-term disablity.

51:24.75 - Doria: Right.

51:42.46 - Asha: They may never return to work. I've seen people take short-term disability, return to work after several weeks, and resign. Sometimes it happens in these phases. That's one way that black and brown people have gotten out of the job market. 

51:54.98 - Doria: Right.

52:02.25 - Asha: Another way has been through what I did. What happened to me was in two different situations I felt pushed out from my job. I was working in a corporation that was well known and it was growing and changing rapidly which meant the administration and your managers were shifting. You were losing staff, but the company kept growing. That meant my position and role kept changing. I shifted from one department to another as various departments were closing. I ended up being under someone who was in a different industry but adjacent and this person was aggressive, and there was nepotism and favoritism in the office. It came across as if people who challenged their authority were seen as a threat. So, I was forced out after highlighting things I found threatening and concerning and they put me on–what they call a pip– which a lot of people know, but one of these individualized plans that helped me to ‘improve’ while I saw colleagues that were leaving work early and coming in late and doing half the work I was doing.

53:01.83 - Doria: Unbelievable.

53:17.68 - Asha: That happened to me twice and I went to another company and worked my butt off, and it was never enough. People left the organization rapidly, and we had a constant changeover.

53:20.97 - Doria: That’s frustrating.

53:36.69 - Asha: I kept being put into these roles I wasn't qualified for and I said yes– because I didn't feel I could say no at the time– then when I did say no, they let me go, so that was disheartening. I've been through it, and I understand when it's happening to other employees that it's a real phenomenon and I believe them. Finally, I see more minority-owned businesses than ever before.  They were growing in my community in New York before the pandemic, but now I'm seeing it online.

54:07.91 - Doria: Yes.

54:15.90 - Asha: I'm seeing advertising for things like homecare and childcare services, and domestic work. I see a lot of diverse services including professional services, consulting, and resume/career coaching. I'm seeing more growth across the board. It's happened to me. I've seen it happen with my clients, and it's based in believability. I believe them, I believe myself. 

54:35.92 - Doria: Yes.

54:54.17 - Asha: At work they have been invalidated over and over. They've been disrespected. They have been embarrassed and shamed in front of their colleagues. They've been talked down to or overlooked for positions when they've said yes, a lot of times.

55:08.75 - Doria: I  want to say I'm so sorry that that happened.  That was painful to hear, and I know that you also hear it from other people all the time but it happened.

55:18.94 - Asha: Thank you. That means so much to hear.

55:28.20 - Doria: The way you spoke about it saddens me.  It’s sadly common to receive retribution.

55:33.39 - Asha: It's a risk, and I understand why people are afraid when I advise them to speak up at work because there is the potential of retaliation.

55:46.37 - Doria: Yes, it takes courage.

55:47.48 - Asha: It’s a common occurrence for people who are marginalized, but now things are slightly shifting. It’s important to know when to speak up and to whom.

56:02.63 - Doria: Yes, and you gave great tips. My last two questions: If you are in a toxic environment either in the workplace or in a relationship – and for whatever reason you are not able to leave– in the next week, month, are there tips you can give to prepare themselves? But for themselves and their mental health. What can they do while they are trying to make their situation better for themselves? 

56:47.45 - Asha: Yeah, or even have an exit strategy. Um, yeah, there's a lot of small steps these minute things that we can do, but I want people to know that they should have a strategy, regardless of whether they stay in a corporation and shift departments, or they actually want an exit strategy because the company doesn't align with their values.  Before they leave– now this may sound very self-focused– but it  needs to be if you're at the point of mental exhaustion, frustration, or even some resentment like you dread going to work. Then you're hitting that burnout wall and you need to act quickly, right?

57:27.13 - Doria: Yeah, so.

57:41.58 - Asha: One of the things I encourage people to do is do a budget appraisal. Start looking realistically at your budget weekly.  See where you spend money, and where you can scale back. Should you leave your job immediately – or if you have to leave at a time you didn't expect – you want to have income to support yourself to cover your basic living. I'm not saying do without pleasure, but some of the things that we have in our budget are not necessities. We have a membership somewhere we don’t use.  Scale your budget to the point where you could survive if you want to leave.

58:26.70 - Doria: Exactly discretionary income. Yeah.

58:38.00 - Asha: Speak to your HR representative or your financial planner about your assets. For folks who've been working maybe 10-plus years, you may be contributing to your 401 (k) or your pension. Maybe you have third-party insurance you've been paying into should you become disabled, mentally or otherwise, and you need to take some time off. Our insurance might cover part of your income, so look into your investments to see how you need to strategize to take a leave or if you need to exit sooner than later. What income do you have readily available to cover your expenses for at least a year-and-a-half? I wouldn't encourage people who don’t have at least a year saved to do this because we're looking at all kinds of things now in the economy. So have a conversation with an overseer of your other investments, so that you could use them if you need to leave. The other thing to do is if there is no HR department or there is no third-party –you may have a legal department either adjacent to your organization that you can tap into, or look into some legal resources in your community whether it's through the Department of Labor or the SBA. So. There are attorneys that do pro bono work or may be able to redirect you to a place where you can have legal representation through an organization that does sliding scale. Accessing those resources, but there are places in your neighborhood where you can at least get a consult on labor laws, protection and a plan of action for yourself. So I would tell people to do those things.

01:00:52.36 - Doria: I love the pragmatism in everything that you've said. My last question is one of the things you say on your website is going from the great resignation to the great recovery.

01:01:10.92 - Asha: Ah, yeah, you got it.

01:01:11.75 - Doria: I hope that's what it said because that's what I remember.  It really struck me and obviously nothing can be distilled to one thing. But if there was one thing in 2022 that you would like to see employers and employees alike embrace– what might that be?

01:01:32.97 - Asha: In short, give employees their time back to help mitigate burnout. Cut expectations for employees to work more hours than is humanly possible. Our brains reach a certain capacity where we can no longer integrate information coming in or putting it out.  For someone that might mean at 3 o'clock your blood sugar drops, and you need a snack.  Get up, move from your desk, drink water, breathe fresh air, soak sunshine for fifteen minutes, and get a snack. It's irrational when everyone has a different capacity,  so giving people their time back. We've created a six-month curriculum that's trauma-informed that gives employees their time back. What that means is no longer can people sit still in front of a Zoom after they've been on Zoom every day of the week for an hour each session and do this rote, maybe giving you an exercise to do and then Now we're looking at more frequency and contact with employees, but doing sessions for thirty minutes and integrating somatic or body work that they can implement immediately throughout the day and repeatedly when they feel distressed. This way we help teach people how to take care of themselves while working, and that produces more ease with work and gives people more confidence that they can do their job with clarity, focus, and concentration. If we start to practice and we model that with the work day, and we scale back on the hours, people start to feel like they have energy after work I can be more attentive to my family.  I can work out. I can eat better and make healthier life choices and that's what I'm hoping this program will do.

01:04:15.44 - Doria: You hear that world!  Where can listeners learn more about you?

01:04:26.99 - Asha: Go to my website and learn more about the work I'm doing for corporate wellness and book an exploratory call, so we can see if this is a good fit for your organization. Let's work to get people back to work – and keep them at work –  but more satisfied, with more energy, and feeling of belonging.

01:04:46.72 - Doria: Yes, absolutely thank you so much for sharing a wealth of knowledge today.

01:04:57.25 - Asha: Thank you so much Doria for having me.