Careers in Trucking: Women in the Fast Lane

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Full Transcript:

Note: This is an original transcript–edited for sense, length, and clarity.  If you have any questions or concerns, please email our host, Doria Lavagnino, at doria@sheventurespodcast.com.

00:00

Doria Lavagnino:

While SheVentures is typically about women who pivot, we also want to bring you episodes that include career paths you might not otherwise consider, hence today’s guest. This woman founded a nonprofit organization to support women in the trucking industry 15 years ago. Established in 2007, Women In Trucking aims to bring gender, diversity, safety, and awareness, and remove obstacles for women who are involved in trucking or logistics, which I’m sure is its whole own thing. When we think about trucking, it’s a typically male-dominated industry; it is a male-dominated industry. But what’s so exciting is that today her organization boasts more than 6,000 –– it’s around 6,400 members – about 15 percent are male allies or people who believe in what she’s doing and what other women are doing, and the rest of them are women who are involved in the truck driving industry. I am thrilled to introduce Ellen Voie. Welcome to SheVentures.

01:20.14

Ellen Voie:

Well thank you so much for having me on today.

01:27.48

Doria:

I am excited to learn more about this industry. I admit that I, probably like many people, when I think about truck driving, I think of the movie Thelma & Louise. That might be too dated for some people. But you have the kind of stereotypical idea of this male driver, and I think that that is something that’s changing. And so I wanted to ask you: What attracted you to the truck driving industry, one that has historically been and still is male dominated?

02:03.78

Ellen:

When I speak to audiences, I will ask women to raise their hand if they actually wanted to be in the transportation industry from high school or college age. Very few women raise their hands. We end up in the trucking industry, and you mentioned the word “pivot.” It seems like we end up here for some reason, and then we pivot our careers and we stay because we love supply chain, we love the people. I’ll tell you I actually in high school was planning on broadcast journalism. I actually went to school for broadcast. But in high school, I had taken industrial arts class, shop class, and I had learned welding and woodworking and drafting and things like that. I got a job at a steel fabricating plant that made material handling equipment and I was drafting because I had learned drafting in high school. One day they came to me and they said, “We’d like to move you into the traffic department and we’ll send you to school for traffic and transportation management, give you a raise, and you’ll be the assistant traffic manager.” I thought, “Okay, education is good.” I was the assistant traffic manager and then my boss, after about a year, he left to go on to another opportunity and they said, “Are you willing to be traffic manager? Do you think you can handle it?” I said, “Oh sure I’ve been doing it already.” So I completed my diploma in traffic and transportation management, and I was the traffic manager at this steel fabricating plant and I was responsible for all the material handling equipment going out, and it was like steel pallets, and cantilever racks, and things like that, and all the raw materials coming in. We had three plants and I had three drivers that worked for us as well. But I used my education and I could read tariffs and audit freight bills and things like that, so that’s how I got my start in the trucking industry. After I got married and started my family I did consulting to trucking companies for 18 years, and during that time I did get my bachelor’s in journalism and my master’s in communication. I still use my communication skills but I’m still in the trucking industry.

04:30.64

Doria:

That is such an interesting story and it also, I think, speaks to the fact that when you mentioned you were responsible for more of the logistics, and the trucks, and the supply chain aspect, I suppose. I guess that is really another big piece of the industry.

04:54.25

Ellen:

Oh absolutely and people don’t realize how big the trucking industry is. In some states, I’m in Wisconsin, it’s the number one job, transportation. We have a lot of paper in Wisconsin that comes out of the state. Careers in transportation are massive, and without trucks America stops. So the trucking industry is much bigger than people actually realize.

05:45.28

Doria:

Until recently, it was a 100 percent a male-dominated environment, and when I say recently I mean like 20 or 30 years ago. You told us about what prompted you to break into the area, take listeners back to your “aha” moment when you decided to form your group.

06:04.60

Ellen:

Well, I’d been in the trucking industry and after I did the freelance consulting after I raised my family, I went to work for an organization called Trucker Buddy International. It’s a pen-pal program for truck drivers who write letters to elementary classes. I ran that for six years, and that’s when I got into the nonprofit part of the world. I was recruited by a large Midwestern trucking company; we had 14,000 trucks. They hired me as manager of recruiting and retention programs, and what that meant was corporate level initiatives. I worked there and one of the things they said was, “Figure out how to attract and retain nontraditional groups,” and that included returning military, Hispanics, seniors, and women. At the time, Doria, I was getting my pilot’s license and I belonged to an organization for women in aviation, and I thought, “Why isn’t there an association for women in the trucking industry?” So I reached out to some very powerful women and said, “What do you think?” They said, “Yeah, let’s do it.” 

My very first board meeting was in March of 2007. I had an attorney who helped fill out all the paperwork and our very first board was all women because these were all women who were very interested in getting the association off the ground. But we wrote our mission that year and it’s never changed. It’s to encourage the employment of women in transportation, trucking especially, and to address obstacles that might keep women from succeeding, and then the third part is to celebrate success and tell their stories and talk about the pioneers. You mentioned that it’s been a very heavily male-dominated environment. We do an annual event: It’s called a salute to women behind the wheel, where we honor female commercial drivers. A couple years ago, we had five women who had been in the industry 40 years. It was amazing. Can you imagine the changes that they’ve seen?

08:08.58

Doria:

Was it a variety? Were they long-haul truckers or how did they fall, the five of them?

08:23.44

Ellen:

Yeah, over-the-road drivers and they had started their careers –– 83 percent of women who become professional drivers do so at the urging of a family member or friend. So typically it’s a husband or boyfriend who says, “Hey you know the kids are grown and out of the house, why don’t you go get your commercial driver’s license and come out on the road with me?” So you’ll hear that story over and over again. They are introduced into transportation by some family member or friend who says, “You can do this.” These women, obviously they’re in their 60s and 70s, but they have seen such amazing changes and so when we do our annual event, we have all the women, the commercial drivers, stand up. And then we have those who have been in the industry one year or less to keep standing and we tell the others, “Please reach out to them. Please help them. Please give them advice and wisdom and mentor them because we need to support each other.”

09:28.20

Doria:

Mentorship is key in any industry, I hear that again and again. How early on when you had one yourself and you had these powerful women, and I guess you had mentioned that you were also brought on by a company or consulting –– I’m not clear about that and it doesn’t really matter –– but how did you find support for finding women and reaching them in those days?

10:00.81

Ellen:

Because I had run the Trucker Buddy program, I knew a lot of people and I knew what women were influential and I had to get them on board because if they believed in the mission then we could convince other people. So the very first year our goal was to hit 500 members, and I was still working at the trucking company. I hired someone to work for Women In Trucking, her name’s Char, she’s still with us, and so she was the first employee and I kept my job at the trucking company. When we started Women In Trucking, the goal was to hit 500 members the first year, and we did — so it was a very active board of directors. Then after a couple years I eventually went full time at Women In Trucking, which I love. I’m still full time at Women In Trucking. We’ve grown; in fact we’ve grown it unbelievably. We have five people on staff and then we have eight in our association management firms. So we have quite a big team that’s helping us move this forward.

11:15.24

Doria:

Is there one channel in particular that would say has helped you grow more than others?

11:23.12

Ellen:

Yes, and so I spend about a third of the year –– pre-pandemic actually but now it’s coming back –– speaking. I go to conferences, I go to software companies. I go to our vendors, like Amazon is a member, Walmart, Daimler. I go to their companies and talk to them about the trucking industry. I go to other events and talk to them about Women In Trucking. That’s how we get members because first of all, they see my passion and also over the 15 years it’s been a real struggle. In the beginning, there was no data. There was no data on women like how many women were in boards of directors, and how many female drivers, how many female technicians, how many safety directors. There was no data. My original passion was that I needed to get data. I need to be able to stand up in front of people and tell them about what makes women different and whether they’re drivers or are in the boardroom. So over the years, companies have started looking at their percentage of drivers and dispatchers and directors. And we actually have a Women In Trucking Index now, and we’ve started a diversity and inclusion index. And now the industry is saying, “We see the value women bring and help us attract and retain more women.” The industry has really turned around in the past 15 years and it’s so refreshing to see that they’re actually using women in recruiting ads and putting women on the boards. It used to be that a dad started a company, and it went to the sons, and now daughters are taking over the trucking companies, and I love it.

13:09.26

Doria:

Love that, yes, absolutely! I want to hear more about the positives but I want to ask this question before we get too far in. What are the barriers to entry today for a woman in trucking, if any?

13:22.64

Ellen:

The biggest barrier is image. When you point to a truck and say to someone, “Have you ever thought about being in the trucking industry?” They just look at you and they’re like, “No.” Especially as drivers, it’s really hard to get them to picture themselves in a truck. But even other jobs, there’s so many jobs in the trucking industry that women would be wonderful at. Safety director, that is a good paying job and they’re responsible for safety. The biggest barrier is that women just don’t picture themselves in the industry, and so to counter that we tell their stories. We have a Member of the Month, and so we highlight a woman doing something, she could be a mechanic, she could be a driver. The woman this month, Ginger Pitts Waste Management; she drives a truck. We want to tell their stories so that other women can look at them and say, “I never thought about that but if she can do it maybe I can.” The second biggest barrier is understanding “What trucking schools should I go to?” “What questions should I ask?” “What trucking company should I go to?” Because all the companies are different, they haul different freight, they run in different parts of the country, they have different equipment, they have different customers. You could be hauling refrigerated food, or maybe a flatbed with cars on it, or steel like I used to be in charge of. So you have to ask a lot of questions, and that’s why we are here at Women In Trucking. We want to help them ask the right questions.

14:58.87

Doria:

I was wondering, I think this is probably not something that you can completely answer because I think a lot of the information would be on your site, but if after listening to you a young woman who has decided not to go to college –– also because college has become very unaffordable for many people –– and is looking at the trucking industry as a possible career path, what advice would you give her? What are the five initial steps that she should take? 

15:35.20

Ellen:

Well first of all, visit our website because we do have a brand-new driver portal on there and it is a lot of information written by drivers for drivers, like choosing the right school and understanding the industry. Then we have a Facebook group that’s closed, but it’s open to women in the industry. It’s about 11,000 mostly female drivers on there who share their experiences and ask questions, and it’s a very good site for sharing concerns and asking questions. Then I would say start doing your research on the schools and ask a lot of people. Go to a truck stop and find a female driver and sit down with her, buy her lunch or coffee and just say, “What are the challenges that you face or what are the opportunities?” If possible, maybe we can help with it, but ask to go for a ride. Find a driver and go for a ride with them and see if it’s something that you enjoy and if you like being in the cab of a truck for hours on end.

16:47.91

Doria:

What are the typical things people do? Do people listen to books on tape? Do they listen to music? How does one keep alert? There’s obviously the safety aspect but you also don’t want to be bored or lonely.

17:12.39

Ellen:

I’m glad you asked that, Doria, because there’s a trucking channel on SiriusXM, it’s called Road Dog Trucking, and I actually have a show every week. It’s called the Women In Trucking radio show. So I hope they’re listening to channel 146 on satellite radio. A lot of drivers listen to books on tape and podcasts –– a lot –– because you’re right, you want to keep your mind active. We’ve got drivers who are actually taking classes. When they shut down for the night, they’ll bring their laptop out and study for an hour or just learn things, either for credit or to advance their career, maybe move from driver into the office and get some education. But yeah, typically podcasts, books on tape, and satellite radio.

18:07.52

Doria:

You talked earlier about collecting data. I was wondering about wage data. Obviously there are many different jobs, as you’ve described, but can you give a general sense, I guess depending on the type of work one does, at entry level, at five years, at 10 years, what is the range of money that one could expect from this industry?

18:32.37

Ellen:

Well, actually that’s a good question because the word “range” is really the response. But I went to truck-driving school and it was three weeks. It was 11 hour days, you have 160 hours of training, and that includes classroom training, skills training which is on a skills pad where you’re doing backing and things like that and then over the road. So after three weeks, I had my commercial driver’s license, I passed. When you start out now, it’s about $47,000 a year to start. Then as you move up the career ladder, the opportunities for getting into different types of freight –– so it depends on the type of freight. If you’re hauling high-end cars, or maybe horses, or household goods, or munitions for the government, that pays so much more than just general freight. But also it depends on who you’re driving for. So private fleets pay a lot more than for-hire carriers because they’re supporting their own retail. So if you were to drive for, let’s say Pepsi or Walmart, Walmart drivers start at $90,000 a year. They start at $90,000.

19:50.70

Doria:

Start? But I would imagine they would expect people that have experience.

19:59.70

Ellen:

That’s correct. It’s harder to get into a private fleet because the pay is much better. Walmart drivers are there to support retail. They need to keep those stores filled. So you know it’s not a for-hire carrier. Now, there are truck-driving schools, there’s publicly funded schools such as your community college, and then there’s private schools that have started a school, a proprietary school, and then the third type is a trucking company that has its own school. Now if you go there, the training is free, but you’re signing a contract that you’re going to drive for them for a year or 18 months or whatever the contract says. So you have to be very careful because those typically pay less than other opportunities. So you just need to ask a lot of questions and make sure that you know what you’re getting into before you sign on the dotted line.

20:55.66

Doria:

That is great advice for any contract that anyone signs. So in other words, if someone gets their education paid by a company they can expect to make, I think you had said somewhere in the mid-40s to start with, but they may have to spend a year or more driving for the company, is that right?

21:20.40

Ellen:

That’s correct. They’re saying, “I’ll take my training free but I will work for you to pay off my tuition,” so that is correct.

21:33.56

Doria:

There are no no free lunches, right? So I guess that fair is fair. So I was wondering also about daily truck drivers versus more of the long haul, I don’t know what exactly the correct term is for them. Are there limitations to the number of hours that any truck driver can work in a week, month, kind of like in aviation?

21:57.24

Ellen:

Oh absolutely and the over-the-road drivers are called “over the road.” So if you see on the back of a truck it says, “Looking for OTR drivers,” that’s over the road, that means that they’re gonna be gone for more than a few days. But yes, they are limited to 14 hours a day of on-duty time, 11 hours of driving. They are restricted and then they have to take a 34-hour reset after a certain number of days so that they get a break. But there are so many jobs now that allow drivers to be home either during the day or at night. The woman that we’re featuring this month hauls recycling; she’s home every night. With the ports and drivers going in and out of the ports, they’re home every day or every night depending on their workday. Drivers who go into railyards, run intermodal, they’re home every day. Drivers who deliver locally, maybe parts or pick up milk or haul fuel, they’re home every day. So there’s so many more jobs that allow drivers to have a better work-life balance. But then there are drivers who want to be gone, and they practically live in their trucks and they’ll be out for weeks at a time and they love it. Then they’ll stop at home, especially if their kids are grown, they’ll stop and visit the grandkids, and then go back out on the road again. So it really depends on what your lifestyle choices are.

23:33.39

Doria:

That makes sense. What currently is the demand for over-the-road drivers?

23:38.97

Ellen:

Well right now, according to The American Trucking Associations, they say there’s a need for 80,000 drivers. There’s a lot of churning. There’s a lot of turnover in the trucking industry because a driver with a commercial driver’s license that has a clean driving record is very, very valuable. They can go anywhere. And so you’ll see a lot of companies put sign on bonuses. They’ll say, “Oh come to work for us and we’ll give you $3,000.” Well that leads a driver to say, “Oh well I’m going to go over there,” and then they find out, “Well I don’t really like this company, so I’m going to go back to my first company.” There’s so much churning. But they can be hired in a day because they’re so needed. We have a capacity issue in this country where we do need drivers but we also have an issue where we’re not keeping them. Now I mentioned earlier that 83 percent of women come to the industry at the urging of a family member or friend, so their turnover is much lower because they understand what the lifestyle is like. But a lot of men will see an ad that says, “Come to our school. We’ll train you and put you out on the road.” Then they come into the industry, and they have no idea what effect it’s going to have on their family, their health. It’s a tough job, and they don’t get a lot of exercise unless they really make the effort. And food choices at truck stops — they need to really make sure that they’re making the right food choices. So it is a tough job and it’s physically demanding because you are sitting and your focus is on the highway around you and the four- wheelers that are sharing the road with you. So a lot of people don’t really understand what it’s going to be like. We really try to share that. We have day-in-the-life videos on our website. We have drivers sharing what their day is like or what their life is like because we want people to be prepared. We want them to understand the effect it’s going to have on the people around them.

25:41.20

Doria:

That is pragmatic, and I also was wondering, when you mentioned churn, is it mostly the physical aspect that you were talking about? The expectation of it being one thing and it turning out to be another, or are there other factors that are at play for what you seem to be describing as a high churn rate? Not so much for women, but for the industry overall.

26:05.19

Ellen:

It’s not the physical factor as much as it’s respect. Drivers get in a truck and they have four-wheelers around them who don’t understand the dynamics of an 80,000-pound vehicle on the road. They have shippers and receivers who are very demanding and say, “You need an appointment and, by the way, if you’re 10 minutes late you go to the back of the line.” Then the companies that have it right, the companies that really value their drivers, keep them. There are some companies out there with no turnover because they treat their drivers as if they’re family, but that’s hard to do with a megacarrier of 14,000 drivers out there. So it really does depend on what you’re looking for, but the turnover is partly because of the pay. If the wheels aren’t turning, they’re often not being paid. So if they’re sitting in traffic, or they’re sitting at a ship or a loading dock, or they’re sitting at a port and they’re not getting paid, that comes out of their pocket. So drivers get tired of that and they say, “I’m not getting paid.” But some companies now are actually turning to an hourly pay, which I think is, to me, best practices. They should be doing that. Drivers should be paid for every minute that they’re away from their family.

27:17.48

Doria:

Wow, 100 percent. I did not even realize that if someone was stuck in traffic that they wouldn’t be paid for that time, that seems completely crazy to me. How does that work? How would a driver typically be paid?

27:31.22

Ellen:

So you’re paid by the mile, or some are paid by the load. The transportation industry is not subject to the federal minimum wage laws. So if you have a bad week where you’re sitting at a shipper and –– here’s another piece of data that I found fascinating, female drivers were over 80 percent more likely to be held six hours or more at a loading dock than their male counterparts. When we started digging into that, and this was done by the American Transportation Research Institute, which is a nonprofit organization, we started digging into, “Why are female drivers waiting longer at a loading dock?” It’s not because they’re female. Not at all. It’s because they’re not in there pounding and yelling or being aggressive. What they’re doing is they’re being collaborative and pleasant and waiting patiently. So we have to say to them, “You need to be a little bit more assertive and go in and say, ‘Hey, when are you going to get me loaded and get me out of here?’” So things like that, data like that helps us address these issues so that they’re not sitting there. But can you imagine sitting at a shipper’s dock for six hours, and during the pandemic and still to this day a lot of shippers and receivers don’t allow drivers inside their buildings. So if there’s no restroom facility, that makes life pretty difficult, and there’s no food. So they’re sitting in the cab of their truck waiting and you can’t move because you’re in line. That’s the kind of stuff that makes drivers leave, and we have to figure out how to make that better.

29:22.36

Doria:

I’m so glad that you’ve brought up all these issues because I feel really ignorant to all of them and I think many people do. I never thought about that. But of course that would be horrible and, if it’s not addressed in any manner, very frustrating. So thank you for bringing those things up.

29:40.57

Ellen:

Think about this, when the pandemic started: What got closed? Restaurants. The sit-down restaurants at the truck steps were closed. A driver cannot drive a tractor trailer through a fast food restaurant. So suddenly they didn’t have restaurants where they could go in and they couldn’t use the fast food restaurants, and then the states shut down their rest areas. They couldn’t pull into a rest area to use the restroom or to sleep for the night because they were shut down. It was just crazy. Our drivers were out there on the front lines doing their job, and a lot of drivers knew that they were out there, they were exposed, so they didn’t go home to their families because they were afraid. Remember at the beginning, we really didn’t know what COVID was going to do so drivers stayed out there. Then think about this, the drivers who hauled for entertainment, if they hauled for conventions, and entertainment venues, and set up concerts and things like that, that all stopped. It all stopped. If they hauled food to hotels and convention centers, that all stopped. So there were drivers who basically had to pivot, to use your term, and haul other things that they weren’t really used to hauling or that didn’t pay as well. These drivers were being very flexible just to keep working.

31:10.66

Doria:

I am so glad that you have highlighted this because I don’t feel that the mainstream media really has talked about this enough. What you hear about all the time is “supply chain issues” and consumers aren’t getting what they need when they need it, but there’s never the side of the people who are having to provide the service of getting things and doing their very best to get things from one place to the other in really difficult conditions, from how you describe them.

31:42.56

Ellen:

Another thing I’d like to point out is the empty shelves are not because of the trucking industry. Drivers are there; they’re ready to haul things. For example, if anyone has tried to order an appliance, or flooring, or anything like building materials, they can’t get them. You can’t blame the trucking industry. It’s because the manufacturers don’t have people working in the factories, or maybe they’re not getting the supplies from overseas because the ports are congested, there’s so many reasons, but it’s not the truck drivers. They’re out there still delivering and keeping those shelves stocked.

32:22.50

Doria:

So, in other words, and I’m not necessarily a protectionist, but in a world where everything was made in this country, we have enough truck drivers, if we could be self-sufficient in that way, we would be okay?

32:38.40

Ellen:

Yes, yes, absolutely yes.

32:40.80

Doria:

In terms of statistics on assault or microaggressions, is that new for women in trucking?

32:52.28

Ellen:

We have been doing a series of white papers on that very same question. What we’re doing is we did a recent survey with over 400 female drivers and asked them, “Where do you feel least safe?” Of course, it’s truck stops and rest areas. We bring in self-defense experts; we talk to the drivers about staying safe at a truck stop, at a rest area. We also talk to the truck stop operators about making sure that they have lots of lighting, security, fencing, and things like that. Then we work with the truck cab manufacturers. I asked them to put in an alarm system like I have in my home. If I’m not home and someone tries to break in, the cops would be here in two minutes. So trucks should have alarm systems like that. Well two manufacturers put in buttons but you have to be in the truck and you have to be awake to hit the button and I said, “No, no, no, that’s not what I meant. I want an alarm system so that if someone breaks in, then the driver will be notified immediately on their phone and someone else will be notified,” and that sort of thing. It’s things like that, the trucking industry is like, “Oh okay, we get it.” 

The biggest issue is parking, making sure that drivers have safe parking, and it’s not safe to park on the side of the road; it’s not even legal to park on the side of the road. But sometimes –– you mentioned earlier –– do they have hour restrictions? Yes. They have electronic logging devices so the company knows how many minutes they’ve driven that day. They can’t go over 11 hours, so you start looking for a parking spot an hour or two before you’re done for the day to make sure that you don’t go over hours. That’s become a big problem, finding available parking. I know that the government is looking into that. I serve on a couple of committees with the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration, and so we’re trying to find a way to make sure that the industry has, especially in the northeast part of the country, enough parking so that drivers can get their needed sleep. 

35:00.19

Doria:

That is so important. You had mentioned earlier your diversity and inclusion initiative. Can you just talk to us a little bit about that and where that’s out right now and where you see it headed?

35:17.38

Ellen:

If you look at the Department of Labor, and I don’t have the exact numbers in my head, but something like 60 percent of all drivers right now are white males, very very few Asians, more Hispanics, and more Blacks. But it’s not a very diverse industry, so we wanted to start measuring. We call ourselves “the voice of gender diversity.” Another thing is, there are a lot of LGBTQ+ drivers in this industry, a lot. I have three friends who are transgender, and it’s a great career for them because they’re in the truck by themselves, they make their deliveries, they’re paid. We have gay and lesbian couples who run team together. We asked the industry, “What are you doing to attract LGBTQ+ drivers?” They’re just not answering. They’re like, “Well I don’t know. We haven’t thought about it.” That’s the kind of stuff that we want to call attention to, and we are making a difference. We had a transgender driver as our Member of the Month. We also did a webinar on how to be more LGBTQ+ friendly. This industry really does have a diversity problem. First of all, we’re calling attention to it and then secondly, we started this diversity and inclusion index. Now, we tried it last year but we couldn’t even get enough companies to participate. So we’re going to do it again this year now that we’ve been publicizing it and trying to get some benchmarking, so that we can move forward in the coming years.

36:54.76

Doria:

So important and it’s interesting that there were so few companies that were willing to participate. It speaks a lot to the issue and I think it’s great that you, your team are trying to address, not only for women, but LGBTQ+ and so many other minorities that I think add a different perspective. It reminds me so much of what I hear on this podcast over and over, and this is not to diss white men, it’s just that when you have a white and male norm then the question of what “Other” looks like isn’t even really considered. That’s what I think so many of us are frustrated by and are wanting to change.

37:42.60

Ellen:

I’m glad you said that because that’s one of the things that we at Women In Trucking have really pointed out. First of all, trucks were designed for men and the manufacturers admitted it. They designed them for the male driver. Now they’re actually bringing in our drivers, we’re giving feedback, and they’re designing trucks that are more economically correct for all different body sizes. We would hear horror stories of women who had to sit on pillows to see over the dash, or put blocks on the pedals to be able to reach them. 

The truck manufacturers are being very, very receptive and saying, “You’re right. They need to be more adaptable. So even short statured men will feel comfortable in the cab of a truck.” The other thing, Doria, is –– and this is still happening –– trucking companies have uniforms for men and they expect the women to wear the men’s uniform. So the women are pushing back and saying, “Please get us women’s tailored uniforms,” and the companies are saying, “Oh yeah, you’re right, we just didn’t think about it, we just had all these uniforms.” A lot of companies will give out safe driving awards, big rings or big belt buckles. We’ll point that out and say, “You really need to rethink your safe driving awards because a big honkin’ ring on a woman’s hand is really not the best award.” I actually had one trucking company owner tell me he said, “Ellen, I thought my days of buying rings were over,” and he said, “We had a woman who was getting a safe driving award and we always gave out big rings,” and he said, “I had to take her to a jewelry store and let her pick out a ring,” and he said, “You’re right, we need to rethink our awards and make them more gender neutral.” 

39:41.29

Doria:

I am so glad that you and your organization are involved in this industry, and I wanted to ask you before we tell listeners where they can find out more: What is the one piece of advice you would give your younger self starting your career knowing what you know today?

40:02.54

Ellen:

Well, first of all, speak up. You have to speak up because if you don’t, then your voice will be lost. The other thing is, women are often too team oriented and collaborative. We’re driven by estrogen, so we want people to like us. I always tell women, make sure that you raise your hand and say, “Hey, by the way, I saved the company X number of dollars” or “I brought in X new customers” or “I recruited this many drivers.” And I tell them, “It’s not bragging. Term it in the way the company sees that you are benefiting the company and it’s not about you.” So we have to speak up. We have to make sure that our leaders know that we’re doing a good job and we have to make sure that we have a voice and share our opinions because if we don’t then the male voices will supersede ours and we won’t be heard.

41:04.55

Doria:

Yes, and what you said about the cabs themselves and not being ergonomically correct for women, I hear this also over and over again on this podcast about femtech and about all sorts of things that are designed for a male standard. Thank you for explaining how that has manifested in the trucking industry and how you’re hoping to see change. It sounds like you and your organization have done an incredible job, and it sounds like there’s more to do and you’re ready to take it on. Where can listeners find out more? 

41:46.27

Ellen:

Well, they can go to our website, which is womenintrucking.org and there’s lots of information on there. And we are a nonprofit association, so we’re supported by our members who pay dues and we have both individual and corporate members. I would say if you want to support our mission, go to our website, click on that little button that says “Join,” and it’s $60 a year if you’re not a driver, $35 if you are, and if you’re a corporation, it depends on the size of your company, so the dues are either $550 or $1,100 a year for a company. So it’s pretty reasonable. Once you join, if you join as a corporate member, you get access to all of our resources, our white papers and our research that we’ve done and things like that. So lots of good information, lots of insight from our members, lots of ways to network, and we have a conference! We have a conference every November. The pre-pandemic conference registered attendees was 1,000 and 85 percent of those were women. So to go to a trucking industry event and have mostly women, it’s just pretty amazing.

42:57.88

Doria:

That is! You had mentioned I think earlier on, too, that you have a job portal where women could look for potential opportunities, as well.

43:01.81

Ellen:

That’s correct. It’s a career center. 

43:13.80

Doria:

Fantastic. Thank you so much for being on. 

43:19.34

Ellen:

Well thank you so much for having me and thank you for giving us this exposure.