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Full Transcript:

Note: This is an original transcript–edited for sense, length, and clarity.  If you have any questions or concerns, please email our host, Doria Lavagnino, at doria@sheventurespodcast.com.

Timestamp 

00:01.2        Doria Lavagnino:   In her early career, she focused on finance for big companies such as Prudential and Walt Disney before pivoting to a career spanning more than two decades as an organizational development consultant — most recently as the founder of her namesake consulting firm in Chicago. She holds a doctorate and an MBA. Today we’ll hear how she works with Fortune 100 companies on sensitive topics in the equity and inclusion space, something we’ve been hearing a lot about in recent months, and probably should have been for a much longer time. As a mother of four, she can also speak to us about her experience with work-life balance. Kerry Mitchell Brown, Ph.D., welcome to SheVentures.

00:58.5        Kerry Mitchell Brown: Thank you so much. It is so great to be here. I appreciate the invitation and am looking forward to our conversation.

01:09.4        Doria:   Likewise. Before jumping into [your current work] in the diversity and equity and inclusion space —  you initially worked in financial services. What drew you to finance?

01:24.3        Kerry: So as far back as I could remember, I was always interested in numbers. Specifically numbers in the context of telling a story of what’s happening or not in business or organizations. This interest was really birthed out of an early experience emerging from my participation in the Futures Business Leaders of America program back in high school. 

My first job was at a national bank in my hometown of Omaha, Nebraska, where I worked 20 hours a week part time after school. I worked in a department where I generated unique credit card numbers while I was finishing my high school requirements for graduation. My entry into financial services started back in high school.

02:22.1        Doria:   Wow! 

02:36.4        Kerry:  I went on to major in finance in college and continued my career in the finance profession across many organizations and industries for some time.

02:56.1        Doria:   You seem to be skilled at it because, while you’re being modest, you worked for some big names like Prudential and Walt Disney. Did you enjoy what you did?

03:10.3        Kerry:  I did enjoy working in finance at large companies and putting all the pieces together, and sharing the story of how the organization is doing. While at Prudential, I worked on their IPO [Initial Public Offering]. When they went public, it was an interesting time and our world and economy, right after September 11.

03:45.0        Doria:   Okay.

03:46.5        Kerry:  We continued with the plan to go public when the market was not all that great. But you know, I learned a lot working in these firms earlier on in my career…

04:05.0        Doria:   I can only imagine how difficult it would have been to try to weigh the pros and cons of going public after September 11, but  —  to your point —  life and business have to go on. You married and became a mother while you were in college. What were you balancing at that time — between your school, career, and husband, and how did you manage?

04:36.8        Kerry:  Oh my gosh. Wow, reflecting on that now. What advice I would have given my 19- or 20-year-old self back then would be quite different. I was young and I was busy. At the time, I was in my second year of college. I was a new wife, a new mom, a first-time homeowner, and I was living away from home —  and I think I was working part time too. So I was balancing a lot and I was terrified —  if I am being honest —  that I was going to drop the ball, right? I was worried that I would either drop a ball that would break or that I would drop one that would bounce so far out of my reach to snatch back. I managed, and the lessons that I learned along the way were valuable. I did it at an early or at a young age. I didn’t know what I didn’t know.

Perhaps that was a benefit as well. I knew my personal life was important and that there were things that I needed to to gain to ensure that I had the best personal life possible, as a foundation for my family, and more specifically, my children.

06:24.8        Doria:   Absolutely. I have two children of my own. It changes one’s perspective. It’s said all the time, but it is profound how it changes your life in a permanent way. Can you walk us through your 19-year-old self’s daily schedule when you were going to school. You had two children. Did your husband help? How did you do all that work?

07:00.4        Kerry:  Let’s see… I married at 19. I didn’t have children. I had children a year later. I was 20. It was a long time ago, but I had children at 20. My husband at the time was in the military, and I was in school full time. I remember we lived away from our family, and my first big hurdle was finding child care. All I knew is that your family helped you out with child care. Your grandmother, your mother, even aunts who were partially retired or retired. I found a lovely woman who was referred to me by my supervisor who kept her youngest child in an in-home child setting. This woman —  her name was Lillian Bryant —  she was 30 years older than I was. She was everything I needed and she was my best friend until her passing maybe nine years ago now. We were so close, but she was everything that I needed, so I had a ton of help from her. I would get up early in the morning, drop my first, my oldest child, Olivia, off at her home. I would make it to campus and go to school and take a couple classes. Then I would go to work late morning through early afternoon. I would go back to campus for evening classes, pick my daughter up, and meet my husband at home. We’d have dinner. I’d put the baby down, do homework, and go to bed. We’d get up and do it all over again. And yeah, that was our life for many years. A couple years passed, and we had our second child and you know we added it to the love and the excitement of young parenting, young marriage, and finishing college and having a military career.

09:41.4        Doria:   Absolutely. One thing you touched on is family child care.  I think it’s a great option because child care is expensive, and there are women who (obviously one should vet or get a referral) make their income by watching a certain number of children in their home. It can be a loving and caring environment for the children as well, so it’s a win-win. It allows women —  who may not otherwise have the resources but have children —  to go to school, work, or whatever else they need to do and it allows the child to be somewhere safe and happy.

10:38.7        Kerry:  Absolutely I remember like her rate was $55 a week forever, right? At 20, I wondered how am I gonna get $55 a week.

10:46.8        Doria:   Wow.   Yeah.

10:57.3        Kerry:  I couldn’t imagine if I had to put my kids in regular daycare. I didn’t have a schedule that would allow for it. There were times where I needed to study for an exam, or that I was so tired, and I would get to her house and she would turn me around and say the kids are asleep. Go home and get some sleep, all right? She not only took care of my kids, she took care of me, right? I needed to be taken care of as a 20-year-old young woman. I was young. There would be times where I didn’t eat and she would ask, “Did you eat today?” I would say, “I don’t have time to eat.” She made me sit down and have food. You know, it was a village. It was definitely important and she was retired, and she was on a fixed income. Although it was $55 — it mattered, it mattered to her bottom line and her being able to take care of her family and her financial responsibilities as well.

11:58.0        Doria:   Yes. People pivot in many ways, and one of the things that drew me to your story is that you pivoted both professionally and personally. You’ve done both. Can you speak about what was challenging and what was empowering about these changes —  first starting with the professional.

12:55.3        Kerry:  Sure. Okay, starting with the professional, I would say there were two pivots, right? There’s the pivot from my transition from finance to organizational development. Then there is a pivot from working within organizations to starting my own business. My transition from finance while I progressed the breadth of experience and upward mobility as it related to increasing title, an increase in salary, and a broad scope of responsibility and accountability. I didn’t feel like I was moving at the pace of my other colleagues. To be clear, when I say other colleagues, I’m specifically referring to white men and sometimes white women that I’d sit alongside within the organization. There always seemed to be a moving target on the prerequisites for the next level as far as I was concerned. Let me step back a little. My entry into some of these multinational organizations in the late 90s and early 2000s was through some targeted recruitment efforts to build the C-suite pipeline for Black women and executives.

There was recruitment of Black MBAs through various affinity organizations like the National Black MBA Association, of which I’m a lifetime member. Executive recruiters that are poaching high performers from organizations. I have many of those experiences and being in the pipeline for C-suite roles. Those were some of my early career goals. It was where I was interested in heading but it was always such a mystery —  even today —  on the pathway for Black women getting there, and I wanted to figure that out.

So I started to match that curiosity with actual practice. I had a unique opportunity when I worked at Walt Disney to partner with the organization to develop a program to create an executive development program for finance professionals organization wide, so it didn’t matter if you worked at the theme parks or the studios. What was the executive development track for finance professionals to get you in the pipeline? That’s where it began from a professional perspective, and shortly thereafter I enrolled in a doctoral program to understand the theory.

16:26.4        Doria:   Right? To understand what was happening…

16:45.7        Kerry:  And get a better grasp of organizations and what transformation was all about both from a framework perspective —  not within at that time, one organization. And ultimately, I shifted my career focus. After doing this work in several other organizations, I transitioned from always working for someone or within organizations to actually working for myself, having my own firm, and partnering with organizations and organizational leaders on helping to figure that out. 

17:30.0        Doria:   What fueled the transition of working for firms to becoming an entrepreneur and a Black woman and small business owner?

17:41.9        Kerry:  Interesting enough that leads to some of my personal pivots. Throughout my life, I’ve had many life transitions. We already talked about being married and having children young. That also included being divorced as well, so I spent time single-parenting with a village of support, so I was able to surround myself and my now adult children with some amazing people, both family and friends. It’s almost unfair to say single-parenting because I didn’t do it alone, right? I had a ton of people engaging and loving us all the way through.

18:33.8        Doria:   I admire your modesty and I’m sure that’s true, but it’s still remarkable that you went on to get your Ph.D. with four kids. That’s not easy —  two children at a time right.

18:47.6        Kerry:  Well, I did get remarried a decade ago, and I am a mother of toddler twins and I’ll be celebrating 50 years young in a few years.

18:53.4        Doria:  Fair.

19:07.2        Kerry:  My pivot for working for myself was driven by this busy and active life and now having two additional children in my early to mid 40s. I was reflecting on what’s required for them. They needed a life where they were centered and everything was built around them and not a life full of adult siblings engaged and busy accomplished professional parents, where our children have to wrap themselves around our lives. The best solution for me and the best solution for our family was for me to make that pivot, taking all I learned along the way and making that work.

20:45.2        Doria:   I can ask because I’ve experienced this myself, so I don’t know if I’m projecting this, or if this was part of your decision-making, but when you become a mother — for example in law firms —  they call it being “mommy tracked.” But the reality is that it’s impossible —  I feel at least it was for me —  I’ll speak for myself  — to do everything well at the same time. While organizations kind of supported me, I didn’t feel completely supported, and I felt like I had to take myself out of the game in order to do my own thing and be present for my children. Was that similar to what you experienced?

21:45.3        Kerry:  Yeah I absolutely. I’m trying to wrap my head around my individual experience. There were tradeoffs. And so I used to talk about this while thinking through, What does it cost me to work here? What does it cost me to work in the organization? Those factors of cost were like what will I be missing and what do I ultimately have to give up that may be near and dear to me? Do my children have to go to before-school care and after-school care so I can fit in the facetime that was required at work — whether it was productive time or not. Who was moving up in the organization? Was it people with children, people that didn’t have children, people that had stronger support networks, or whatever? So interesting because my dissertation study actually explored that because I was also curious too. Can we do it all or do we just lose time? And what were the impact the personal relationships had on our professional lives?

23:05.4        Doria:   Hear hear.

23:18.3        Kerry:  Does it support or obstruct our upward career mobility which is one measure but also our perceived success? I felt in some instances that I was doing well because I was spending quality time with my children. I got a chance to make it to football games, and I chose to be involved in some parent-teacher things at school, which also correlated to me not being able to move as fast on a track in my workplace. Someone who had an opportunity to devote more physical time in the office, that didn’t necessarily translate to them being more impactful, or smarter or even more efficient in doing their work. I think organizations are slowly changing around that but it certainly is my feeling.

24:29.3        Doria:   What did your dissertation find? I’m curious.

24:30.5        Kerry:  Okay, so my dissertation: The answer to the question is, “You can do it all, but not at the same time, and you can’t do it all by yourself.”

24:40.6        Doria:  Yep, amen.

24:45.6 Kerry: And so again when I was talking about having this amazing support network of family and friends. I also did find that the women who had more

personal relationships had higher rates of upward career mobility and higher rates of perceived success than women who had fewer or none. So mothers and family roles involve caretaking.

25:12.2        Doria:  That’s really interesting.

25:23.0        Kerry:  Not just mothers but caretaking responsibilities, which could include care of elder relatives in addition to child care, and my study focused on Black women, specifically only — not comparative to other groups of women but just for Black women. And it did illustrate the way that Black women get things done as working mothers, daughters, and partners and navigate the organizations. Sometimes there’s choices, right? When I say that you can’t do it all at once, I don’t mean that you can’t be a working mom, be a partner, and have a high touch career. But you can’t say I want more work-life balance but I also want a high-profile career, Sometimes those things don’t work themselves out.

26:39.3        Doria:   Exactly. Absolutely there are tradeoffs. And to touch on, before we move ahead to what you’re doing today, what you said about elder care. There’s so much unwaged labor that maybe some men do but I see mostly women doing it when it comes to child care, when it comes to caretaking of parents, etc. I don’t know what the solution is. I have some ideas of what I would like the solution to be but it’s hard.

27:32.6        Kerry:  Yeah, it is hard and it goes back to the conventional wisdoms on society and roles within families on who picks up what and enrolls within organizations. Although some things have changed, the reality is that work and workplaces have historically been designed for and by men. Life or family structures are similar, and there’s an assumption made about what women need without engaging women and getting those assumptions on the table. Sometimes there are solutions, which don’t match up with what women might self-determine. I think the pandemic has started

to balance some of those things out. 

Women have been asking for flex time, some ability to work from home, and have some more autonomy in their scheduling so they can engage. And men having new experiences — perhaps being at home working when the kids are at home either going to school or needing to be cared for. I will be very interested in what emerges from an analysis standpoint and an understanding of different practices on the other side of COVID for what workplaces and organizations are interested in doing differently.

29:49.3        Doria:   Yes, and to your point, women have demonstrated now — it might have been through COVID, maybe not all organizations wanted it to be so  — that you can work remotely and you can be very effective. Though it is challenging with little ones at home, I will say that as well. Fast forward to the work that you’ve been doing you know for more than two decades. For listeners who may not understand exactly what diversity equity and inclusion strategies are, could you tell them high level?

30:33.6        Kerry:  Sure. I would say that similar to many things, there isn’t a shared understanding or practice or a single definition for diversity, equity, or inclusion and what it is —  or what it should be. What I can tell you is how I approach it and it starts with examining basic human needs. It shouldn’t be separate that basic human needs are met within life but not at work where everyone has a sense of belonging, where contributions are valued, where people understand that their contributions are valued regardless of where they sit within the organization, how long their tenure, how big or small their paychecks, and that there are high levels of respect. Getting clarity on this and paying attention creates a great potential to reduce or hopefully prevent any casualties along the way or to at least predict what those casualties might be.

32:05.9        Doria:  Yes.

32:07.8        Kerry:  And so oftentimes you would say Black men really don’t fare well in this organization because of X and X. If you can predict that, then there’s probably something that could be explored. 

32:26.5        Doria:   Absolutely and some of the areas that would be included under this umbrella term that is being used suddenly now are about race, gender, and sexism, economic privilege, and class. Those are some of the areas in which your consultancy focuses. I don’t know if this is a weird question to ask but I was curious if there’s one topic that you tend to get more inquiries about than others?

33:09.2        Kerry:  Sure, given the current realities of the world, I would say most of my inquiries are around interventions for race and racism. It’s either to address what should be done about it within organizations, or to prove that it’s not an issue. “We don’t have these problems here” or “We’ve done enough to address them.” I would say most often it is about race, and I would attribute that to what’s been happening over the last couple of years.

34:05.3        Doria:   Which to me when I reflect upon it, it’s sad that that’s what it took to get it to be a more mainstream concept. Because for Black women —  I’m sure you can speak to this much better than I  — these issues have been going on forever.

34:33.8        Kerry:  Yes, since the beginning of time. I mean it’s race and racism. It’s global and it’s real. It’s been baked into all of our systems as institutions for more than 500 years, and it’s great that we are talking about it. Some people in organizations are doing more than talking about it  —  they’re actually taking it on and doing something about it. That’s a good place to start, but it’s not espousing commitments to do better in the future because the future is now.

35:26.5        Doria:   Yes, absolutely. The future is now. One of the pieces of data that I found was that in 2021 a little bit more than half of Fortune 500 companies published some sort of 2020 race data, but only 22 companies  — or 4.4 percent —  published a full breakdown of their report in terms of minorities, equity, and pay inclusion measures. There was a lack of data. It’s almost like what you were alluding to before that a lot of organizations talk the talk but when it comes to seeing the efficacy or even seeing what measures are being implemented there’s little bit of a lag, I guess for lack of a better word.

36:37.7        Kerry:  Yeah, I mean there are a number of challenges. I’m not sure we have enough time to address them all here, but one of the I don’t even say low-hanging fruit —  I would just say the fruit that’s on the ground that we could just pick up that the things that you report, and the things that you measure are the things that you have something to do. We have statistics everywhere. Everything is measured. We’re in a time now where it’s not about demographics. It’s political, right? And organizations have an idea on what the makeup of their organization is. Just like they have the same anxiousness around posting earnings that are underperforming right? Racial and ethnic data is a principle threat. Racism is a principle threat to the bottom line. Organizations have to do something differently. I mean we’ve moved beyond it being representation and demographics and society is saying that it’s not enough.

38:36.5        Doria:   Right? And so with that in mind, when a firm hires you, and I’m sure there’s a lot of different ways in which this could come about, but in general how do you meet your audience where they’re at because I would imagine workplace cultures vary. How does that work?

39:04.3        Kerry:  Sure I meet them where they are by first doing an analysis to determine what they actually want to tackle. Then we look to see if there is alignment for the work that they need to have done, and the work that I am willing to do, because again the beauty about having your own firm is that you have the opportunity to say what you have the capacity for and what you have the interest in doing. Some organizations want to do the assessment and they really don’t have the capacity or the interest into doing anything further than a couple of workshops. Well I don’t do equity work. That’s not a part of a larger transformational effort because training alone does not work. Workshops alone are not enough. Fast Company released an article about a study that was done about what organizations can do to tap into the power of leadership, and it looked at the inefficiencies of placing  — and I don’t want to say placing because it implies that it was not earned —  but the inefficiencies of leadership of just having women of color specifically Black women in higher level positions, but not in leadership positions right? What’s still missing and how organizations can tap into the leadership and the power of Black women specifically in this article. Again, if it’s not part of a larger organizational transformation, I look at, “Do I contribute to the harm that’s being inflicted on people within the organization or within the system?” Obviously not physical harm but psychological and emotional harm because people are really looking at organizations to be sites for learning about fair treatment and equity and certainly to be discrimination-free zones. Anyway, it’s a great article.

42:31.3 Doria: Thank you for mentioning it, and we will put it up on our social media assuming it’s not behind a paywall.

42:42.6        Kerry:  Yeah, they’re referencing a Harvard Business Review study around putting Black women leadership into practice —  interested in seismic transformations and solutions. But I really don’t know what that is until I’m engaging with firms after we do some sort of analysis on what we hope to take up and what that means if that’s helpful.

43:24.6        Doria:   And have you seen organizations willing to have the seismic shift that you’re describing?

43:34.8        Kerry:  Some are and some are not. I mean some organizations are not ready yet. Some organizations have not prioritized in a way to match what their corporate statements are for fighting racial justice or working toward racial justice and again, it means different things to different organizations. Understanding what an organization’s unique contribution is to this overall fight for equity. That’s the magic right? We can’t all do the same thing, but finding out what the unique contribution is where I try to work with specific organizations and determining where the organization may take the lead for their particular industry, their particular region where they may join others having efforts moving for a greater impact or where they follow leading the way. They could use support so not every organization has to be the leader but every organization should be doing something.

45:19.9        Doria:   Right.

45:24.8        Kerry:  That’s more than offering a workshop.

45:26.6        Doria:   Yes, there’s no one-size-fits-all, that’s understandable. As a Black business owner, how would you say people’s conscious or unconscious bias has affected you?

45:56.3        Kerry:  I’m not sure. Um, I mean intellectually I would say that as a Black woman I assume that people make assumptions about who I am or who I may not be based on their limited understanding of who I am personally. I think that’s all I could say.

46:35.8        Doria:   Fair enough. I understand that you’re not a mind reader. There are so many small businesses out there. I was curious about the cost of implementing  — and when I mean cost I mean the actual dollars —  of implementing these kinds of initiatives which are absolutely necessary. Is it a cop out for small businesses to say we just don’t have the bandwidth to do this? What can they be doing at a bare minimum.

47:16.5        Kerry:  I wouldn’t say that it isn’t a cop out per se, but what I will invite them to consider is that I say either you can invest now, or go bankrupt later. As a business, there is liability for discrimination. There is liability for harm, which you can’t put a price tag on, right. Or at least a known cost on, or a known price tag. There can be damage to your reputation.There can be damage to your brand, which you also can’t put a price on. I try to encourage them to think about it in phases, so it doesn’t happen overnight. But what are some of the things they can begin doing within the organization? Looking at some of their policies, practices, and procedures creating a culture within the organization. Where there is an ability to do more of this in smaller organizational settings and larger organizational settings —  creating an equitable culture where there are more conversations around equity and not inequities. What is a process for making dark skinned people feel more human? That doesn’t cost a whole lot. That’s almost free. Treating Black people  — treating dark-skinned people —  humanely. That’s a good place to start for any organization. Certainly small businesses right? 

49:33.3        Doria:   Yes, you see you brought tears to my eyes. I was almost a little bit ashamed to ask the question but it is so true. Humanity doesn’t have a cost.

49:53.7        Kerry:  Yeah, it’s free. I get outside costs with a consultant. I mean there are a number  — every person that I talk to  — every organization, every leader that I talk to. I don’t always. Charge a cost right? I mean there is some part of my portfolio that I reserve for small businesses who are interested in, “Where do I start? I can’t spend a ton of time with them, but I don’t turn them away because they don’t have the budgets you know to support it. I know I have a number of colleagues that are interested and dedicated to this work where they offer the same, so if cost is a barrier my question typically is, “What are you really resisting?”

50:53.8        Doria:   That’s such a powerful question. What do you say to critics of DEI who say that you’re reaching people who already think and believe theoretically the way you are advocating for. At the same time, you may be further alienating those who don’t embrace those principles. Is that something that you hear?

51:33.2        Kerry:  I do in some instances. Some people will say you’re preaching to the choir  —  I hear you, you know  —  I understand  — I get it. “Well, help me talk to more people, help me encourage more people  —  if you understand —  do some work and or continue doing the work and for people further alienated.” There’s always going to be people that you don’t reach, but from an organizational perspective there are or should be rules and guidelines. So, whatever you do outside of the organization should be up to you, but while you’re here, this is the expectation, and if you can’t operate within that then you should be asking yourself, “Why do you work here?” That’s what I encourage organizational leaders to do. It’s not a requirement that you have to invite —  let’s say your Black and brown colleagues to your daughter’s wedding —  and make sure that their pictures are in all of your important family events on your Facebook page, but you do have to have high levels of respect within the organization. There’s the interpersonal and what you do in your life within these are expectations that you agree to as part of your contract for employment. You have to, it’s part of your job. It’s part of receiving your paycheck, however often the payroll cycle runs, right.

53:29.2        Doria:   Yes. As we wrap up and before we get into how listeners can learn more about where to find you, if there’s one myth that you would like to dispel about diversity equity and inclusion what would that be?

53:56.8        Kerry:  I would say that it is about humanity, not about demographics. It’s about treating people as humans, treating people whole and creating an environment where they can feel safe.

54:25.2        Doria:   Absolutely but the myth that would be related to is on the other side.

54:30.7        Kerry:  The myth is that people have to give something up in order for that to be possible.

54:47.2        Doria:   This has been a very enlightening conversation for me. I appreciate the authenticity in which you speak. I wanted you to, if you don’t mind, tell listeners where they can find out more about you and your services.

55:11.2        Kerry:  I have a website, and you can reach me at Kerry, K E R R Y mitchellbrown dot com, and you will find all of my social media handles there links to my social media pages but Kerrymitchellbrown.com is the easiest place to catch me. There’s links to my email and there’s also links to my social media.

55:40.0        Doria:   Fantastic! Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

55:43.9        Kerry:  It was such a pleasure and happy to join a conversation anytime in the future. It’s been such a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.