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Note: This is an original transcript–edited for sense, length, and clarity.  If you have any questions or concerns, please email our host, Doria Lavagnino, at doria@sheventurespodcast.com.

Intro:

Doria Lavagnino: If you’re a college grad struggling to find your first nine-to-five or a parent watching your Gen Z lose hope in their job search, this episode is for you! Today’s guest is the founder of Next Great Step, a company focused on helping college students or recent grads transition to the job market — an often overlooked life pivot, but a very important one. Her company boasts a 90 percent success rate when it comes to having students find a job that they are happy in, and I’m sure their parents are very satisfied when that happens, as well. Her book, The Next Great Step, which I have right here and is what got me interested, is a well-researched, fact-filled guide to help parents, educators, students, [and] employers with step-by-step suggestions and practical how-tos. The way that the book is formatted is incredible. It helps you along the journey and you don’t feel alone when you’re reading it. As the proud mother of two Gen Z daughters, I am so glad to have her on today! Beth Hendler-Grunt, welcome to SheVentures!

Beth Hendler-Grunt: Thank you so much for having me, excited to be here!

Doria: I am excited to have you! This is a topic that is very close to my heart right now — a pivot going from college to your first job. Before we talk about that, I wanted to talk a little bit about you and your 30 years of experience. 

Handling Many Pivots

Doria: You’ve done some pivots yourself. I hope that you could give us a brief overview of that. 

Beth: Sure, I’d be happy to! There are so many pivots, I think, for all of us. I’ve been fortunate [in that] I’ve had a lot of pivots. [It] requires all of us to be adaptable and open to those changes.
When I was in college, I got an internship when it wasn’t the most “in” thing to do. I didn’t want to go abroad [and] a lot of friends were doing that. I decided to work in Washington, D.C., for a semester. That was my first internship. Interestingly enough, that internship was what launched my first job and career in the tech sector. I’d say that was one of my first pivots. 

I got married and [had] children. You start to reframe what’s important to you once you have family and kids. I was very much on a track when I first started my career of “I want to be this type of role.” Then, I had a baby and rethought that in terms of how important that was. I was able to find things where I was able to learn and grow in a work environment [but] still be able to raise my family. 

I’d say the next pivot was when I worked for AT&T and Lucent Technologies for about 15 years. I was ready for something different. I needed to be at home more because, as my kids were younger, there were a lot more demands. I took on a role where I pivoted. I was a consultant. What was great is that I had more flexibility. I was able to be there and learn and grow. I had the opportunity to work with CEOs and their executive teams and help them develop a strategy. That was a really exciting time. 

Then, I came to a point where I didn’t want to work for anybody anymore. I didn’t want anyone to tell me where I had to be, what time I had to be there, or whether I had to miss something from my kids’ events. I wanted to try my hand at being an entrepreneur. 

In my consulting work, they’d always say to me, “I’d love to hire a recent grad [or] young adult, but I’m not going to. I’m going to pass over them because they don’t understand the scope of the problems that we have. I don’t have time to babysit.” I was [at an] age where I had a lot of friends saying to me, “I don’t understand. My kids went to a great school and have really good grades. They can’t get a job. I don’t understand why.” That became my next pivot. I said, “What if I took the strategies that I taught to executives and taught [them] to young adults in a really simple way?” That’s how I started this company, Next Great Step. 

I had my friends’ kids come into my basement and I would teach some of these concepts. They’d say, “We’re not getting this. We don’t understand this. This is great. This is what I need to figure out my career path and how to be the one chosen for jobs.”

Those are just some of the pivots in my life that kind of brought me to where I am. There are lots of different [pivots] — mentors, great disappointments, or failures — which lead to tremendous pivots. I didn’t have this perfect trajectory. Those were some of the major milestones for me.

Learning from Failure

Doria: Of course. If you had [to name] one failure — I’m of the mindset that nothing is truly a failure because you learn from it — what comes to mind for you?

Beth: Oh, there’s plenty. In this particular business, the way we do it is I speak to a lot of parents, but their students are the ones who are the clients. I once took on a client, a young woman who was a college student looking for a job. The mother spoke to me and said, “Oh, she’s going to be perfect.” I learned my lesson. I didn’t speak to her daughter ahead of time [and] that was the biggest lesson. 

It turned out she had some serious mental illness. She cried the entire session that we were together. Now keep in mind, I’m not a therapist and our materials are like, “Tell me what your strengths and weaknesses are. Let’s talk about an elevator pitch.” It’s not overly emotional. She cried the entire hour, which I felt horrible for.

Doria: Of course.

Beth: I realized that, from that point, I will never take on a student without speaking to them first. I was like, “This isn’t good for anybody. I don’t want her to be upset. This is probably not the right fit for what we do.” 

I have other things in my corporate life where I’ve made mistakes, presented to the wrong people, didn’t give the right proposal, or wasn’t researched enough — all those things. They felt horrible at the time, but it was incredible learning for us and myself.

Guiding Her Kids

Doria: I completely agree. For some reason, I thought you only had one son, but do you have more than one child?

Beth: Yeah, I have two. I have two sons. One who’s a recent grad and one who’s a college sophomore. I’m in it. I’m living this in real time!

Doria: Yes, and that was what I wanted to ask you, — as a parent, what is the most challenging part of helping your children with the transition? I guess they haven’t quite made the transition from college life to the workforce, but what has been challenging for you in that regard?

Beth: What’s challenging for me is similar to what’s challenging for a lot of other parents. Parents, in general, have had a lot of life experience or can give good advice. It’s also reading the room. Does your child want to hear this advice even [if] they know mom’s the career expert [with] helping to get an internship or first job? It doesn’t help because it’s still mom. I have that same challenge the way any parent who has a career and tries to give good advice. They’re like, “Oh, Mom, that’s not how it’s done anymore.” 

Doria: “You don’t know anything!”

Beth: Right, [or] “That’s not how it works,” or “Mom, there are these platforms and that’s how you apply.” I’m like, “I don’t know if that’s the best way to go about it.” 

I feel very fortunate. I’ve worked hard to have a good relationship with each of my boys. They’re both very different kids [with] different needs [and] personalities. I’ve worked hard to try to form relationships where they trust me and I trust them. Look, there are still things I’m sure we don’t tell each other. In the end, they’ll take my advice when they really need it [and] they do come to me. They’ll say, “Can you help me with the letter that I want to write to this person? I’ve never met them before. Can you help me make sure I have the right words?” 

We talk about [my work] over dinner. They always love to hear [when] I’m like, “Here’s this ethical dilemma I had with a client. What do you think I should do?” I try to engage them. 

Doria: I love that.

Beth: I think their understanding makes them more receptive to the guidance because they see a lot of the clients are just like them. I’m not going to tell you it’s perfect. I know I do a lot of things that are probably not good or right; I open my mouth when I shouldn’t. I’ve learned a lot being in this role about really managing expectations and not imparting my shortcomings onto my kids. I know a lot of parents sometimes do that, not intentionally. Sometimes we take all of our missed opportunities and try to [say], “Well, I didn’t do this, but you should,” or “I did this [and] you better do it, too.” I try to see who they are and the talents they have. 

We all need reassurance. I’ll just say, “They’ll be okay,” but it’s hard. I don’t have a perfect answer but I try very hard. 

Doria: Absolutely, and I love what you said — that they actually listen because it gives me hope. My daughters, one of them is heading to college [and] the other one is a sophomore in high school. I often wonder, even when they ask for advice if it goes anywhere. I think, maybe, at the right time, it does come back to them when needed. To echo what you said, [about] having an open relationship with your children — one that is full of trust — is essential.

Biggest Challenges for Students

Doria: One of the things that I hoped you could talk about — and I see it a lot in my own work because I work with college-aged interns — is what would you say are the biggest challenges that students face when they are transitioning from college to trying to get their first job?

Beth: There are many challenges, [but] I think one of the biggest challenges that students face in making that transition from college to the real world, it’s more about the expectation and how easy they thought it was going to be. I hear this all the time, people say, “Well, I went on the college tour and the college promised me that by going to school there, I’d have a great career when I graduated.” I think the part that was missing is that they didn’t realize how much work would still be on them. The university is not going to take care of it for them and they actually have to put effort into it. I think the realization of how much more effort is needed and not just in your senior year or junior year — you need to start doing it as a freshman. That feels very overwhelming because you’re adjusting to college. I understand the difficulty and the pressure of getting into college, and what we’ve done in this country about how much people put on it. 

I’m not saying that it’s not important. It’s just one piece in the process. It doesn’t solve everything. Awesome, you got in, that’s great! Now [that] you’re there, you need to take advantage of it [and] utilize all the resources in front of you. 

The other thing I see is, “I finally got into college. I’m going to enjoy this. My parents [are] connected or they know people. I’m sure I’ll meet somebody or someone is going to make an introduction.” It’s so funny because I talk to many parents who say that — who are very well educated and in high-level careers — “I made an introduction and it didn’t go anywhere.” What’s happening is that their kids are kind of blowing it because they’re not prepared. They’re not researched and assumed because Mom or Dad was friends with somebody, it would happen. 

When it comes to business, no one’s going to risk their reputation unless they feel and know that you are competent in the work. [That’s] what I see the most about students — a little bit of mismanagement of expectations of what’s going to happen and the amount of work that you have to put in to get the result that you want. 

Doria: I have seen that in the trenches myself. A perfect example is a young woman who is finishing her internship with me and I was talking to her about her next step. She was using Indeed, sending out cover letters, not getting responses, [and] feeling demoralized. The following week, I checked in with her again and she had gotten one response that ended up being something like a sales offer for something. That demoralized her further. What I did do with her was I said, “Let’s take ChatGPT. Let’s use your major, where you want to live, [and] find out what the options are.” I sat down with her [and] made a spreadsheet with different ideas. 

The next thing she said to me was, “I’ve heard that entry-level jobs require two to three years of experience.” I didn’t know what to say other than, “Listen, that might be the case but if you do the legwork of finding out who is responsible for the position and you demonstrate that while you are young and out of college, you are eager, and these are XYZ skills. That is probably going to make you stand out. Do a one-minute video. There are many ways to be creative and stand out.” That’s what I feel is lacking. It’s the meritocracy of —I don’t want to blame it all on this — expecting things to be handed to them.”

Beth: It’s funny that you say that. I’ve used that same phrasing in the past. Interestingly, I have young adults who are coming out of Ivy League schools who have never gotten a grade lower than an A and have everything going for them. I had this the other day [with] a young man. He goes to Yale and is applying and not getting [anything]. This is the first time in his life he’s getting rejected or no response at all. He does not know how to handle it. He has no coping mechanism for it. There’s also that expectation of, “Look, I did what you told me. I got the grades. I showed up to class.” The job search has a different level of criteria. Yes, having a high GPA is good but that’s the baseline. How are you going to add value? How are you going to articulate that? I don’t care how great your resume is, you have to be able to verbalize all these things. That’s the part that I think so many of our kids are not fully prepared for. 

It’s funny, my older son will say to me, “Look, Mom, it’s not my fault. You put this device in my hand [and] that’s how I learned how to talk. I didn’t learn how to call.” Of course, I made my kids pick up the phone and call people. 

You can’t always text your potential employer or send them a Snapchat or something. We are not always teaching [the tools]. We can go down another rabbit hole [on] who is accountable to teach our kids how to speak on the phone, how to network with somebody, and how to shake their hand and look them in the eye. 

Then, you have all these kids who experienced COVID for the last three years in their bedrooms. You kind of have the perfect storm of all these real challenges. I don’t make any excuse for [what] they’re facing and haven’t had the practice [for]. They don’t know how — they’re just overwhelmed. 

I’ll lay on one more piece — this huge mental health issue where there are so many young adults with anxiety, depression, or a lack of confidence. I feel like we’re in a crisis of lack of confidence when they have so much to be confident about. I feel like that’s kind of my business. I’m in the confidence business. I want to make sure you bring that. It’s really tough.

Doria: It definitely is. I see that in my children as well.

What To Do Freshman Year

Doria: You alluded to [that] one should start in their freshman year. Can you give listeners a sense of what their children should be thinking about?

Beth: Yeah, absolutely. Simple things to do starting freshman year — even though it seems kind of overwhelming because you’re still picking out your bedding and you’re not sure about living away from home — is, in addition to your academics, pick a club or two. Pick one for social, do something for sports or something that you love to do. Pick a club that’s related to the major that you’re in. It’s a great way to meet people [and] get exposure. Pick two clubs and get involved. It’s a great way to meet people. It’s also a nice resume booster. 

The other thing is to pick your favorite class and get to know that professor. Go to office hours. “I am really interested in your class. I’d love to maybe pursue this further or tell me other ways that I can do that.” Having a professor that knows you starting freshman year can be valuable. Often, employers will come to professors saying, “I need an intern, who do you think I should hire?” I think that can be incredible, even writing a referral for your grad school application. Pick a professor that you really like first or second semester. Find something that you like. 

The other thing I suggest — people think sometimes I’m crazy, but I don’t think so — is to go to the career fair as a freshman. I know you don’t need a job or an internship. Here is why: because when it counts, you’re going to be stressed and worried. When it doesn’t count, it’s a great way to practice. Practice putting on professional clothes. Practice walking up to a couple of people at the different tables or introduce yourself. Ask them what they do or what the company does. Then, you can maybe stay in touch with them. The practice of that conversation or even knowing what an employer might be asking you in future years, makes you much more confident for when it actually matters. [They’re] simple things [and] not hard. [Put] yourself out there to start thinking about it. 

Doria: Love it. Those are great suggestions. I hadn’t thought of the college fair one. I remember being in college. I do know there was a college services office. I didn’t honestly think about it much. I feel like that’s true today as well. I don’t know if it’s that there aren’t enough people or if the students are disengaged but that connection doesn’t seem to be happening with that resource. What are your thoughts on that and what can educators do to improve?

Beth: Career services is a tough one. When I first started this business, my initial idea was: I’m going to go to career services at all these different universities and I’m going to come in to support them, supplement what they’re doing, enhance it [and] not replace it, [and] be another resource that can help what they’re doing. The overarching feeling was kind of defensive. They’re like, “We have it under control. We don’t need any outside resources.” 

Here’s what I uncovered about career services: The truth is the statistics are only one in four kids ever show up and go. In many cases, career services are not considered where the money goes at a university. A lot of times money goes toward sports or a library building. Unfortunately, it’s not funded the way it should be. 

You also have people who’ve been in that department for 20 to 30 years and are not current on how you look for a job. The other thing is, at a very well-regarded major public university, for 20,000 liberal arts students, there are only 16 people. That’s not feasible. For the amount of attention and time being put there — and our kids aren’t going. They’re like, “That’s a waste of time, I don’t need that,” or they show up and the support can be sometimes very tactical. They’re like, “I don’t know what to do with my career or life.” I think if you go to a university and business school, they take those kids under their wing a lot more, really guide them through, and employers come looking for them. Overall, it’s a huge problem. Then, it’s crazy competitive. 

I’ll have kids who come to me from top business schools saying, “Well, everyone else is going after these jobs and how do I differentiate myself?” I feel like there’s a real challenge in career services and I’ve spoken to a lot of people about it. One of the biggest problems is that it’s not required: you don’t need it to graduate; it’s not a class. Until you really put that into your curriculum, it’s very hard.

Doria: It’s such an excellent point. Also, it’s much like financial literacy. No one [is] ever taught how to manage their money, yet we’re just expected to know how to do it. I feel like job skills fall in that category, as well as things that are not being taught that are survival skills. Working Through Generational Trauma

Misconceptions About the Job Market

Doria: When it comes to common misconceptions that students have about the job market, what are the most common ones and how can they be corrected?

Beth: The most common misconceptions that I see are the use of technology and that it’s a numbers game: “If I just apply to more jobs on more job boards, eventually I will be found” or “Eventually that’s how I’ll find my job because the math will just yield that.” That’s one of the biggest misconceptions [and] that’s not the case. It’s actually a huge waste of time because what comes back is either a scam, nothing at all, or it’s not targeted to what you want.

The other misconception that I see is that “If I have this amazing resume, even a great LinkedIn profile, I will be found,” or “I’m gonna send that out and people are gonna be like, ’Wow, look at this resume! I have to hire this person.’” Again, just a piece of the puzzle. The important piece to remember is that people hire people: not an algorithm, a tracking system, or ChatGPT.

Ultimately, you need to forge a relationship with someone who is looking to hire or in the field so you can get better educated about what they have to offer. That part is scary. That’s the part where I think they’re making the mistake. They’re like, “Oh, I don’t want to get on the phone,” or “What am I going to say? I don’t know how to network.” That’s the biggest mistake — they don’t realize that networking is actually the number one way you gain employment versus submitting online or having a perfect resume.

Importance of Internships

Doria: Yes, absolutely. I wanted to ask you about internships. Do you think that they are important for college or high school students?

Beth: I love internships. I want to take a minute to define internships. It doesn’t have to be this 10-week or 12-week formal rotation program at a big Fortune 500 company. It could be many different things. There are companies out there that offer project-based internships. You can do a project for two weeks for a company. You’ve gained experience and you didn’t have to do it all summer. All of that matters — even the part-time jobs [of] scooping ice cream and delivering pizza — and teaches a lot. I don’t want to underplay that. 

There are a lot of skills to be learned about the customer service business. How do you optimize? How do you interact with people? I’m a big fan of any kind of experience that helps you get better clarity about what you like and don’t like. This is the perfect time to take all those risks. You don’t have to commit. You don’t have a family [or] a mortgage. You can try a lot of things out. If you took on an internship and realized you hated it, it was still the best use of time to realize that you didn’t look for a full-time job that you might be stuck in. It’s hard to move around. Try it out and realize, “I really don’t like this aspect of this company or the way they treated me, but I like this part of it or I learned this skill.” I think internships are tremendous. 

It takes a lot of self-initiative to find it and get them. People aren’t just coming up like, “Oh, you’re a student. Here’s an internship!” I get this all the time. Someone will say, “I messaged somebody on LinkedIn and I asked if they had an intern or if any internships were available.” I said, “You understand that’s like asking somebody to get married and you’ve never met them before? They don’t even know you.” You’re just like, “Hi, I’m so-and-so and I really like your job. Do you have any internships?” That’s not how you get it either. There has to be this process in the middle. We can show them how to do that. 

Doria: I love that.

Gender Differences

Doria: I want to get into some of the ways that people work with you. I was curious because you work with both male and female students. Obviously anecdotal, but is there a difference in the issues that typically present with students, or does gender not play a role in what you see?

Beth: Gender does not play a role in what I see. What I see more that’s interesting is that the students who come to me, I would say, “Why are they talking to me? They went to a top school, they’re in engineering, [and] have perfect grades.” On paper, everything looks amazing, right? The same way in social media. Then, they start talking and they’re terrified to speak, they don’t know how to express themselves or they’re rambling. Now and then I understand, I’m like, “Now I know why you’re not getting jobs because you’re not on point [or] focused.” 

I don’t see it in the gender differences. People come with either one of two main issues. One is “I don’t know what to do with my life” or “I know what I want to do and I’m trying, but I’m not getting any interviews or any entry points to get there.”

How to Work with Next Great Step 

Doria: How can people work with you?

Beth: People can work with us directly. We provide advice to college students and grads. We help them do two things: 

1) to get clarity on their path and where they want to pursue 

2) how to be the one to pursue that path and be the one to be chosen for the job. We do that through private coaching and small-group coaching. We have a phenomenal team of advisors that we work with together. 

You can also buy the book, The Next Great Step, The Parents’ Guide to Launching Your New Grad into a Career. I wanted to put a tool in front of families that really enabled them to step their young adults through the process. You can do it on your own with your student or you can come to us and we’d be happy to help you.

Doria: The book — which I have read — is really great. Having said that, though, can you give one or two tips to parents whose kids are back home, graduated, don’t know what to do with their lives, and their parents are often frustrated? 

Beth: The tips that I offer to parents when they say, “What do I do? My kid is still home and I want to help them. It’s been a struggle.” The first thing I say is you have to stop, listen, and ask a lot of questions. Before you say, “Go apply online, update your resume, or go talk to my friend,” you need a real conversation to say, “Tell me what you’re thinking. What are you interested in? it’s okay if it doesn’t exactly match up to your major.” I know that’s terrifying for a lot of kids. Have a really honest conversation about what interests [them]. 

The next thing is [to] help them identify their skills. Talk about this topic of core skills. What are the top three things that they are the most competent [or] skills at and they enjoy doing? Very often, [for] our kids, it’s hard for them to see it. As a parent, you can say, “I’ve seen you do this. I’ve seen you be a part of this club. You can be a leader. I’ve seen you demonstrate leadership skills. I saw you write for the paper. I know that you’re a great writer. Let’s talk about what are the few skills that you want to hone in on.” 

Once they start to get that clarity and start to see it themselves, the process becomes easier. They know where to leverage those skills. They know to look for companies that need those skills. They, maybe, look for jobs that need them. They know how to talk about themselves. Starting off with an honest conversation of, “What are they thinking about?” and help them get clarity about their skills. [Those] are the two best things to start off with your kids.

Supporting Universities

Doria: Lastly, I wanted to ask you, as we’re wrapping up, do you also work with universities?

Beth: I absolutely have worked with universities to support them, whether it’s I’ve taught classes, we’ve done webinars, [or] we’ve supported career services in certain places. We’ve evolved too, where we’ve also worked with financial advisors as they help their clients with estate planning. I’ve worked with HR departments as they’re trying to figure out how to provide a benefit to parents by getting my book in front of them. They want to make sure that they can help their employees’ kids launch. We’ve done a lot of different areas of support, but yes, we work with universities.

It’s almost a universal challenge that anybody who has a young adult in their life or the young adults themselves is trying to figure out “How do we get them to launch in a way that helps them to be successful and ultimately financially independent?”

Helping People

Doria: Do you have one sweet spot — like one area where you feel that you really shine in terms of how you’re able to help people?

Beth: I think the place where we can impact the most is when we have someone from sophomore to senior year in college because what we’re teaching is not only about how to get the first job or internship, [but also] how to get the second, third, fourth, etc. I feel strongly that the skills that we’re teaching set you on the foundation for how to be successful throughout your entire career, not just this one job or thing. The earlier they learn it, the more success we’ve seen over time. 

Doria: Super interesting. Again, for the video part, I’m going to hold up this book, The Next Great Step. It is an incredible read. I have notes inside of it. I am grateful that you were able to come to SheVentures today. Thank you so much, Beth!

Beth: Thank you so much for having me! I appreciate it.