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Full Transcript:

Note: This is an original transcript–edited for sense, length, and clarity.  If you have any questions or concerns, please email our host, Doria Lavagnino, at doria@sheventurespodcast.com.

Intro: 

Doria Lavagnino: Today’s guest is amazing! This woman has had incredible pivots. She was a high school dropout and a teen mom who took adversity and turned it into action. She boot-strapped $12,000, and 12 or 13 years later, has turned it into a $40 million business. By founding a company called Swank A Posh — a fashion company, which sells what she describes as — and I agree — “very body-positive” jeans and other clothes. As with most entrepreneurs, success was the result of grit, hard work, and trial and error. The first online iteration of her business failed. Fast-forward to 2022: She made $2 million on Black Friday and Cyber Monday — not bad for two days of work. She’s here to talk to us about her journey and how she’s paying it forward by creating a secondary business called Business Best Friends, a program to help entrepreneurs learn how to run their businesses. She’s also mentoring young Black women from entry-level employees to become high-level executives. Ebony Swank, welcome to SheVentures!

Ebony Swank: Thanks for having me! I’m so happy to be here.

Doria: Thank you for your patience. She’s not letting you know of the half an hour that we spent troubleshooting before we went on air. She’s being very gracious. 

Got It From My Momma

Doria: I wanted to start with your background. Where are you from, and if there’s one particular childhood memory that stuck with you?

Ebony: I grew up in Detroit. I’m very proud of that. I remember as a kid: a GUESS jumpsuit. I’ve always gravitated toward clothing. I don’t know what that’s about. 

My mother was a very pretty woman, she cared about everything: her hair, her makeup, everything mattered to her looks-wise. She thrived off of that. She was so pretty. She was the youngest of five kids. I believe she instilled this in me. As I think about it today — after speaking with you as you’re bringing up my childhood — this is where I got this from, my mom.

A Sudden Pivot 

Doria: You have a pivot, right? We all have things in our lives that happened suddenly. One of those for you was that you found out as a teen that you were pregnant. Can you reflect on that time and what influenced your decision to have a baby and put your education on hold?

Ebony: Well, it kind of was a little different than that. I was already 19 or 18 when I got pregnant, so I should have graduated from high school by then. I can remember helping my mother as a single parent. As I reflect — because we have two kids now, 25 and 13 — my biggest question to myself is: What was I doing that school wasn’t my first interest? I have an eighth-grade education. I did do some ninth grade at a local school, Crockett in Detroit, but I just didn’t have any interest and I just didn’t go —if I wasn’t skipping. We lived in a house where it was a bungalow — a small home in Detroit — and my bedroom was upstairs. Sometimes I would hide upstairs. I had no interest in going to high school at all. I felt like I was older [and] more responsible than the kids. 

As a kid, I didn’t know why I had these thoughts. I had a boyfriend and all of these distractions. My mother didn’t graduate from high school either. I had a couple of cousins that didn’t graduate high school, but the rest of my family is fully college educated. I guess the influence of my cousins that were right above me — I saw it as school isn’t important. In fact, that’s not the case. I would never tell anyone and I couldn’t imagine.

Alaya, our oldest daughter, graduated last year or two years ago with a biology degree. Then Bailei, our youngest child, goes to a very rigid private school. Education is really big in our scope. My husband is an attorney [and] has a finance degree. It’s like for me, what was I doing? What was I thinking? As I reflect, I reflect on my mom being single and me helping with my brother.

The reason why I thought I was too mature is because my mother [was] working, and I [was] helping to run the household. That still gives me no excuse to be able to [not] go to school.

Fast-forward some, I went and took the GED when I was 19, 20, or something like that. I still tried to figure out the answers. What were they teaching me? How did I have the knowledge to be able to figure out the problems that were actually on the test? Somewhat of a high school assessment test that gives you the same credentials and I still don’t understand that. As I reflect on my life and the different things that I’ve done and how I was able to bring this company — fast-forward — to where we are today, it just may be who I am.

Doria: Well and to your point many entrepreneurs don’t thrive in the traditional education setting and often do things on their own. In that way, I think that you’re a trailblazer. You were obviously dealing with a lot if you were helping your own mother, you were becoming a mother yourself. I’m sure that you were pulled in a lot of different directions.

Ebony: Yes, 100 percent. My brother is five years younger than me. It was almost as if — my mom is working as much as she’s working — I am his mother. I have to make sure dinner is done, I have to make sure that the house is clean. It was all of those different things that I [had] to make sure I got done and, essentially, I grew up way too fast. Does that help me today in the different decisions that I have to make instantly as I’m running this company? Of course. Did that help me to be able to strive for the positions that I’ve had to be able to mold me into the woman that I am today? Yes.

At first, I used to be really upset at my mother that I had a lifestyle where I was responsible for so much. As I reflect now that I’m 44 going on 45, I thank her for that because I’m able to give my kids a great life. I’m able to mentor all of the girls here that aren’t as fortunate as I am today, or our kids are today, and I give them that. It’s almost like I took a sacrifice or she made a sacrifice for me. In some way or another, God made all of that work for me.

Doria: There’s something I think, almost spiritual in what you’re saying because I also had a very rough upbringing. I have two daughters. There’s something about being able to raise them in the way that you wish you had been raised. It’s nourishment for my soul and it sounds like you feel the same way.

Ebony: Definitely, because sometimes I can overindulge in areas where I don’t need to with them. I have a very strict educational purpose for them — and, sometimes, my husband says that I can be a little bit too hard or expecting too much from them, and sometimes they may feel that from me. I didn’t do any sports, so I make sure that they’re in sports and always busy. They have a very great education. I invest so much into them now that we’re older and we can afford it. The education that Bailei receives is to die for in the different opportunities she gets but that, again, goes back to what you’re saying — I’m giving them the things that I wish I had as a kid.

Finding Support and Comfort

Doria: You spoke a little bit about your mom. Did you have support around you?

Ebony: Yes, family. My mom was the youngest, so my mom’s family. Her family also supported her because she had shortcomings as well. We didn’t have new cars and different things. She had a job that was basically helping us to get by. She was on welfare, too. I’m not ashamed of that, either. These are things that I used to be ashamed of growing up, but now we are who we are. My mom did the best she could do. Even with my kids, the different things that I do that they don’t like, I want them to understand I’m human and I’m still doing the best that I know how to do.

Doria: Amen. At any given time right, we can only do the best that we can do. Change can be unsettling, where did you find comfort in a significant pivot? 

Ebony: Comfort. I think it was with my friends. It also depends on which age we’re talking about too because when we talk about comfort, I never did drugs, drinking, and the wild hanging out that people would do.

Doria: Yeah, you didn’t have time.

Ebony: No, I didn’t. It also was just striving to be a better person. I always wanted things. Things were always very visual for me; nice homes, nice houses, nice cars. Now, to the point where I am today, I never expected this. I didn’t think that these things were obtainable, to be honest with you, until you get here. 

If I reflect on five years ago, I still wouldn’t have thought “here.” I thought “there.” People would always say to me, “Are you proud of yourself? You’ve done this and you’ve done that.” As I continue to grow, I always say “No, I’m not satisfied.” It’s not that I’m not grateful — I just know that there’s more. That’s why I like to keep myself around people that are successful. There is so much more out there that I need to learn, that I need to do, and I’m willing to do that. I’m all game for it.

Doria: You’re “boots to the ground,” like get it done.

Ebony: Yes, because I still work as if it hasn’t happened yet. That’s the thing that I thrive on and I love it because I have created something that I love to do. It is profitable. I control everything. I’m happy to be here, but I still understand that I have a long road ahead of me.

My road to success, all of the molding that was happening is who made Ebony. I’m 19 with a child, I need a job. In our area, either you’re going to — because we’re in the Metro Detroit area — the automotive industry. I didn’t want necessarily to go and have a plant job. Although from our area, I want you to understand that successful people weren’t made up of doctors, lawyers, or entrepreneurs. The successful people in our neighborhood — what we saw were people that worked in the automotive industry in the plants. To give you an income, they probably made $80,000 to $90,000 max — which is totally fine, nothing wrong with that, but that was what we saw. 

If we go back to when I dropped out of school, I never saw a school in my future because I had no one to mentor or influence. My aunt, who is the oldest, had two master’s degrees in social work. [She’s] a social worker helping people. She’s not going out buying a Mercedes or anything like that — She’s careful with her money. She’s buying property, as she should. She’s owning her home, paying her home off. She’s living the regular American dream, but in fact, I saw something that — because of TV and all the rest of the stuff — I wanted to be bigger. 

Long story short, I went into the accounting department. I never touched a typewriter or computer outside of being in middle school, but I’m just going to try to be a data entry clerk. I went to temporary agencies because, for some reason, I don’t know how I knew [that] would be my way in. Again, I didn’t have a mentor or anything, so I went as a data entry clerk. I’m in the accounting department.

From there, I’m promoted to collections. Now, I have a resume with data clerk and collections. Then, I’m promoted. I was the type of person where I went in, I made sure that the CFO or the controller knew my name. I would do more work than what they asked because I needed them to see. I knew that I didn’t have a degree. I had to build my resume and I needed to make more money.

Over the years I continued to become promoted and I worked under a CFO for years. I was eventually promoted to accounting manager. Then, after that job, we went through a layoff. I was later promoted to be a financial analyst, again, with no education, just job experience and me being who I am: strong work ethic, always wanting to do more, being who I am. 

I don’t have a retail background. I did open my stores with no experience, but that was just like many entrepreneurs.

How It All Started 

Doria: Where did the seed of starting your own business come from? 

Ebony: Okay, so again, I always want more — I’m going to keep striving. What I’m making at my job, it’s paying the bills, but it’s not enough. I probably was making — when I opened up a hair salon — about $60,000 to $70,000 annually at the time. Again, I’m using what I’ve been taught by the CFO to make sure that your costs are low. Costs were low but it was expensive to be able to run a salon and net profit was about $1,500 to $2,000 a month. At the time I’m doing it, I’m like, “Well, it’s paying my mortgage — because I own my own home at this point — and I’m doing the work.” It doesn’t require a lot, but it still wasn’t enough. 

A girl walked into my salon one day and she would ask me “Hey, can I sell things around here?” I was like “I don’t mind.” She [told] me she would give me a discount if I bought something from her. One day, she comes in and I said “I’m going to pull her to the side. I have some questions for her.” [I asked,] “Where do you get your clothes and how much do you make in a weekend?” She said “Well, I make about $5,000 in a weekend.” I’m like, “What?!” 

Doria: I’m in the wrong business!

Ebony: Yeah, I’m a numbers girl. The numbers are running up, and I’m like, “She’s just going store to store. If I had a store, I wonder how much I could make.” I started researching, I opened up, and I was so excited. Doria, I was so excited that I opened up in a mall, based on 401(k) and money that I had aside. I spent everything, because I knew that this would work. I was buying really expensive jeans, like Joe’s Jeans and Frankie B. Jeans, and that taught me something. I was so excited. I’m not using any of the things that I’ve been taught working because I got caught up in the vanity of opening and owning a store. I didn’t make any money. It flopped. I learned a lot. I was inside a mall right outside of Nordstrom.

Doria: That hurts. 

Ebony: It was really hurtful. During all of this happening, I find out I’m pregnant again. Alaya is now 13 years old. My mother was living in Missouri. During all of this happening, she had a heart attack and she got triple bypass surgery. I’m nervous, praying and asking God. I asked God to spare Bailei’s life, who was in my stomach, for my mother. My mother survived. She was up and walking in less than two months. It was really damaging to her. That’s how I know how real God is.

 Now my mom is fine and I’m about to have this baby, and long story short, I’m going to find me another store because I was living off of savings. I spent a lot of money, but I didn’t spend everything. I had $12,000 left. I asked my mother, “Can you please move from Missouri to Detroit?” I was taking care of my mother because she couldn’t work anymore. Although she was fine, I just didn’t trust it and so I’m like, “Well, move back to Detroit, help me with the kids, and I’ll try to get this business off the ground again. I’m going to do this again, right? 

I learned so much. One of the things that I learned and I don’t mean to bore you, but I learned that when you have Joe’s Jeans or a brand that way, they have restrictions. You have to follow their rules. This time around, I’ll have to make sure that I found my own clothing and I was going to control the pricing to be able to scale. Not only that, I’m never going in a mall again, because I need to make sure that my rent is very inexpensive so that I can afford it [and] my overhead is low. When I go to shop at the market, I’m going to look for things that are really inexpensive so I could give them a huge markup. I would be in alleys digging through things. When you have a store, you don’t need more than six pieces of each item, but you have to have a store that’s big enough. A store that looks full enough, that makes people want to come and shop. The store that I found, I think the guy wanted $2,700 a month. I don’t know how I got this guy down to $1,200.

Doria: Wow, that’s just something about your negotiating skills.

Ebony: Yes, because my CFO used to tell me everything is negotiable, so I’m like, “Hey, I need to pay $1,200. I’m doing a full budget.” I would go into a local store, which was the Juicy Couture store, I don’t know if you remember them.

Doria: I remember.

Ebony: They were pretty popular here at an elite mall here, and I would speak to the girls. “Hey, who’s the customer you guys are selling to?” They would tell me that it was an African American girl, she was the one that came to spend the most money. I started to study my community because I’m a little older than what they were. What are they interested in? What are they listening to? Who are they dating? Are they married? It was more than what they tell you traditionally in the books, you should know your target market. I went deep and I opened the store and I made sure I had a sign. 

The thing I did was, the store was probably 1,400 feet. I made it about 1,000 square feet, I put up a wall so that the store would look full. It’s wasted square footage, but not really because I’m just starting and I’ve cut this rent in half so I’m going to figure out how to make this work. Long story short, this is how I got here and I opened up a second store. 

Those two stores are still open today and they’re still very profitable. I still operate them as if I did when I first opened them because that’s my secret sauce of my recipe as to how I’ve been able to build this business. I still have people that have been with me since that time and they have been promoted within our business here. They’re now on the corporate side.

My mother used to always say, “Ebony could have been anything.” She’s no longer with us, but she said that. I wish she was here to see because I did lose her to a heart attack. Again, God is real, because Bailei’s birthday is April 23rd. My mom died on April 22nd, 2018. I know that she put me on the right path to be able to be who I am today.

Doria: She is watching you. I am absolutely sure of that.

Ebony: Yeah.

Swank A Posh’s Audience 

Doria: Who is Swank A Posh for? In your mind.

Ebony: Swank A Posh is for a regular everyday girl. Sometimes we say, “We’re the corner store for the fly girl” because you don’t have to be a particular girl, but it’s also for everyday women. Sometimes you’re going to different categories or stores, and you’re looking for a birthday dress. When you come here, you can find almost anything that you want, particularly everyday wear. I’ve learned that women sometimes just want to be themselves. When you come here, you can be yourself. That’s also the message that we display across our social channels.

We’re basically your girlfriend that you could talk to about anything. Whether we’re talking about sex, men cheating, us getting married, or if we want to go get liposuction— what they call a BBL. Whatever we want to do, it’s a safe space here.

Doria: It’s a safe space. To go back to what you had said about your first store that didn’t do well to where you are, and you say that data was really the big differentiator. I think between the first and second time, that’s carried you an incredibly long way. How did you take your business and scale it? You had the first business open and it was doing well. Is it just once you get it down that you kind of rinse and repeat, or is it not that simple?

Ebony: Well, it’s really not that simple because before I didn’t have any data to go off of. It was almost like the beginning stages of the first and second store where the data that I was building to be able to get where I am today. Of course, this is a full data-driven business. I love visual things but I’m not so crazy that if the yellow jeans came in and a customer didn’t gravitate toward it that I would continue to buy yellow jeans. Who is the customer that likes the yellow jeans? 

I have an amazing team. Some of them have been with me for years. Some of them have been onboarded within the last few years. We have been able to grow together. The one thing that they learned from me is that we do not make a decision without the data. The data is what leads us to be able to make the decision along with your human input. That’s why we get here because you’re intelligent and you can help us to be able to scale this company.

Marketing Strategies

Doria: I have also heard you speak about email as well. That’s been a very important part of your marketing.

Ebony: Email and text messaging — more so text messaging — because you have to be able to get right in the customer’s face. You have to send them what they want. When it comes to emails [or] SMS, you have to be able to give them what they’re looking for. One customer may not be in a particular segment than the other customer is. You have to be able to go in and identify those particular customers so you can put them in the flow in which they need to be. We do the same thing with social media organically. We also, definitely, do it with ads.

Doria: You’re very highly segmented, which is what they tell people to do. It’s amazing that you did that on your own, really. 

Ebony: It’s amazing to me too, that I’ve been able to do it. I’m just still trying to figure it out. Again, it goes back to who taught me these things. I’m analyzing as I’m growing and scaling. As a CEO, you have so many different responsibilities and you have to be able to keep up with all of these particulars. 

Doria: What’s so remarkable to me about you — there are many things — but today every marketer talks about segmentation. When I think about the fact that you were doing this 12 or 13 years ago and people were not talking about it. That to me is a really big deal.

Ebony: Yes, because you just have to be able to put those pieces together. My husband says that I’m very different. I am always trying to figure out, what do you mean? To me, I’m just being myself. I hope I’m not gloating or anything like that, I’m just trying to explain my personality. No, people weren’t doing these things and I was. I’m always trying to be ahead of what’s happening today and understanding where we need to go as a company. 

Even last year, we were hearing on the news how retail companies were dropping in revenue and sales because they were over-predicting inventory. We know sales and we’ve grown. We grew, and we were able to grow.

I got my final year in numbers back. Although I knew we were ahead, I didn’t know how much ahead we were, but I was actually really excited to be able to go “Hey, we’re still growing” because I initially opened during a recession period, 2009–2010. Those were the best years because those were the years when I was learning so much about my business.

How Much Cash We Talking?

Doria: Do you want to share your numbers?

Ebony: I closed at about $45 million this year.

Doria: Good for you.

Ebony: Yeah, but I meet people who’re at $130 million, $200 million. It’s just like what are they doing and now I know. I put myself on a quest to be able to continue to grow. I had to move some things around in 2022. I was a little nervous. I told my husband we probably won’t close with what we were normally close with because we were moving so many different things around. 

You get with agencies, and some agencies don’t know how to scale you. You have to figure out how to replace them with the correct people. I also didn’t overspend on marketing. I pulled back a lot. In the end, I did do some changes. I planned out the entire 2022. I was excited about where it was going. We were able to profit more. Our revenue was higher, too. I was excited. I’m goal-driven; numbers excite me. I love all these clothes, but I understand at the end of the day it’s all a numbers game. I have to have my eye on it consistently to be able to drive the revenue, drive the sale, scale higher, and more people. It’s just what I’ve been doing.

Doria: You’re laser-focused on it. Is the percentage of sales more online? I would imagine that it is in your stores. Is that right?

Ebony: Yes, of course. Our profits are higher in the stores because you don’t have all of these different technical things that you have to be able to do to drive the customer. However, the other part of that is what we do on the online side. The stores definitely benefit. You can’t measure it because it’s not digital. You know what I mean?

Doria: I do. I do know what you mean.

How to Be a Biz Woman 

Doria: If there are different tips that you would give women today or from what you’ve learned, like everything in the past 15 or 20 years, what are they? What are three tips that you would give someone starting out as an entrepreneur?

Ebony: The first one would be to have a plan, because even if you have children, and a husband, you still have to figure out how you’re going to be able to do this. It’s something in everyone that we should be able to do whether we’re growing our careers or changing our careers or whatever it is. I always say, “Give your best.” 

I had one of the girls that have been here, she comes from the mortgage industry, she is helping me with production planning as well. She works in the photoshoot area. I always like to hire people that would work well here. You have to be numbers driven. She went above and beyond on a report for me today. She saved me six hours of work based on something that she was able to do this week. I assigned her a project. She came up with an entire system that I would have had to start because I didn’t really feel comfortable with delegating it to anyone — I wanted to do it on my own. 

My point for saying that is I know her. I’ll never forget that. When there is a promotion coming up, I’ll remember that. Always go above and beyond, even if it’s not in the entrepreneurial world. Even if you’re at work, just get the best out of it. Get the experience and then go somewhere else and just keep climbing until you can’t climb anymore. It’s always something you should be able to do to be noticed because everyone has something special inside them.

Doria: That’s a great tip. Are there any others? Are there any that are specific to women of color?

Ebony: Women of color, so I could tell you that I have what I have. My responsibility is to be able to give a woman of color, that comes from where I’m from in my community, a chance and everybody doesn’t want it. I’m not saying that people don’t deserve it but when you come and you’re mentoring right up under me, or you’re hired here to do something — understand that I would rather take the person that has been with me the longest and has the most experience, and promote them higher and build them up, rather than hire someone off of the street. 

Doria: Oh, absolutely.

Ebony: That’s my responsibility. It’s what I want to do. I’m not prejudiced or anything, it’s just that I have a commitment to the younger brown brothers or sisters. That’s what I want to be able to do for them, and I pray that my platform will continue to do that. These people are here making six figures. I brought in cousins and my daughter works here. My daughter had to earn her position here. I didn’t just give it to her because she has to learn and be able to understand. I want to always be around, so she has to be able to see my hard work.

Doria: I understand that you’ve received buyout offers. Obviously, your business is very attractive.

Go Big or Go Home

Ebony: Yes.

Doria: Do you have a number?

Ebony: My husband asked me that the other day and I don’t know. I really don’t know, because I thrive off of this. I didn’t tell you that now I am in the process of getting my own factories.

Doria: That’s really smart.

Ebony: Yeah, it’s really smart and it’s really big. I’m meeting all of these people. I’m having my own factories with my own stores and everything. The reason why I’m doing so is to cut costs. Yes, we raised the bar last year, but we also raised profits. Now this year my quest is to cut costs in half with a product and also be able to get things faster by restocking with the full system that we have. 

I’m doing all these things so I can continue to build this business. Anyway, as I have these factories, does it not make sense for me to bring in another brand? I’m in the process of creating a shapewear and athletic brand that’s separate from Swank. The reason is because I have these factories and these contacts and I’m creating my own. I can build that business up with the same formula that I have here and then sell that off. I don’t know what my number is. I love this so much, but even if I do sell Swank A Posh, or if I sell the other brand, at least I’ll still have something to be able to hold on to.

Doria: This is incredible. I would love it if I may pin you down to talk again a year from now. I promise you will not have any technical problems.

Ebony: Okay.

Proudest Moments/Regrets

Doria: I would love to hear where you’re at. Your journey is so inspiring and amazing. I’m kind of speechless, which is unusual for me because I really am impressed by you. My last question is what is one regret and one win that you have that you’re most proud of?

Ebony: My regret is I have mom guilt. You know what I would never do? I would never miss a volleyball game. I would never miss a school play. Alaya — the shortcomings that she has is being a young lady in her 20s that thinks she knows it all — I’ve learned to be her friend more than just her mother.

It’s more in my personal life. I’m still a wife. I regret that I don’t have the ability to go to the grocery store every week or time to cook. Those are the nurturing things that mom does. Those are also the sacrifices that were needed to give up in order to have the life that we actually have.

If I was able to do these things, then I wouldn’t be able to do the things that matter more to us when we were not struggling. We have a good education. We have more money management skills —different things that our community struggles with. I’m grateful to be able to be the leader here when it comes to that.

Doria: Yeah, you’re teaching financial literacy in a very pragmatic way.

Ebony: Yes.

Doria: Incredible. Where can people learn more about you and your store?

Ebony: @ebonyswank is my personal Instagram. You can go there and find some things. I do need to tell you this, Doria. I started Business Best Friend years ago and then I turned it off.

Doria: Oh, I did not know that.

Ebony: Yeah, I did turn it off. I’ll tell you something. I was at a convention recently and I saw one of the girls that I would teach and she said, “Oh my God, I haven’t seen you in so long. You helped me make my first $100,000.”That to me — oh my God, at least I know that someone was watching, listening or paying attention. I haven’t done that since about 2018. She says that to this day every Black Friday comes, she pulls out her workbook, her videos and she goes over the program over and over again to be able to lead and guide her team as she grows her stores.

Doria: Is this the program that you have online?

Ebony: I don’t have it online anymore, but I used to have it.

Doria: Okay, but you are definitely very involved with women and men of color and helping them?

Ebony: Yes, if I brought all my staff in here — I may be tough, but — one thing that they’re going to do is they’re going to learn. I make sure that they learn here because I always tell them whatever you learn here, they can apply it at their other jobs. If you leave, because you don’t have to stay, you always know that you learn something from working at Swank A Posh.

Doria: Absolutely, I bet you’re a great mentor. Thank you so much for coming on SheVentures today.

Ebony: Thank you, Doria, for having me.