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Full Transcript:

Note: This is an original transcript–edited for sense, length, and clarity.  If you have any questions or concerns, please email our host, Doria Lavagnino, at doria@sheventurespodcast.com.

Intro: 

Doria Lavagnino: She spent nearly 20 years working with corporate leaders as a CEO and founder of Wisdom To Lead” an Israeli-based company, which focuses on helping executives reach their full potential by using techniques in the field of mindfulness. 

Her clients include companies such as Google, WeWork, Teva, and Siemens. Here to speak about her journey:earning her Ph.D. in the unique field of leadership in the 21st century, building her company from scratch, becoming a keynote speaker and the author of the book Mindfully Wise Leadership, is Keren Tsuk. Keren, welcome to SheVentures!

Keren Tsuk: Thank you, pleasure to be here with you. 

Doria: It is really nice to talk to someone about mindfulness, a practice that I really didn’t get involved with until I was probably in my 40s. When I thought about starting a company (as you did nearly 20 years ago), the principles of mindfulness, which are thousands of years old, weren’t mainstream, at least in the U.S. It makes me wonder how you decided to start a company that uses mindfulness as a way to effectively inspire and engage leaders?

The Beginning of Keren’s Mindfulness Journey

Keren: It was a journey. I didn’t know at the beginning of my career that this is what I’d bring to the workplace. I grew up in a home where my mother brought the mindfulness and spiritual aspect to the house. My father was a doctor and an organization professional.

My leading question was always to blend between the material world, mindfulness, and the conscious world. This is the question that leads me in life. My career started as an organizational consultant, working with leaders, going to organizations, doing diagnoses, and showing them how I can help them work with leaders and managers in their companies. Then, I felt the need to get a Ph.D. because I knew I needed to bring something to the workplace. 

One day, I went to the library for a client and I was looking for an article. Then, I found an article about mindfulness and leadership, which I understood that this will be the theme of my Ph.D. I conducted a two-year case study in a high-tech company for my Ph.D. 

I was always interested in combining theory and practice. There is always enough to act [on] once you meet the day-to-day and you have to deliver a project now in a really stressful situation. It’s really nice, the theory, but what’s happening in the day-to-day? What also led me to conduct a case study was to be immersed in a company and see what happened.

Doria: To get the data as well, right? 

Keren: Yes, to talk and interview people, collect and understand, and figure out what’s happening there. I found the answer to my leading question, which was: What is the role of leaders today in leading financially successful organizations while motivating their employees for meaningfulness, and intrinsic motivation, in order to help them fulfill themselves, be creative, and for the organization to be innovative? I found that mindfulness is a crucial element that we need to embrace and leaders as individuals need to engage.

The Epiphany Moment

Doria: Did they give you that back, or was it your interpretation based on the study that you did?

Keren: It was a qualitative study, so it was my interpretation. They didn’t call it mindfulness. The CEO created a meditation room in the company a long time ago. It’s not that common now in sales to us and different companies. It was a big deal that something was happening, which I wanted to understand. 

The CEO brought this perspective to the culture and his leadership: “What does it mean to be a mind reader? How do you bring mindfulness to the day-to-day?” I didn’t have a pivot point, but this was the epiphany moment for me, which was to understand that what I want to bring to the organization is new leadership. Before I finished my Ph.D., I believed I didn’t bring my unique voice, and yet this was what I had been searching for, to bring different wisdom and tools to the corporate world.

Doria: I think that most people think of Ph.D.s in organizational psychology as doing a set of things. I love that you intuitively knew that there was something missing in what you felt needed to be brought to the workplace. That’s incredible, bold, and really quite visionary. You are proposing something that I think a lot of leaders might drag their feet about. 

Keren: In the committee of my Ph.D., the dean of the management school retired from my team and from the committee because he really resisted it. He was the expert in leadership and retired from my committee, so I was brought in to bring this team to the university academia a long way back. This was my first bold aspect. 

I continued this journey and after I finished my Ph.D., I was invited to teach in Hong Kong. They opened a master’s degree called Executive Meaning for Innovative Leadership and opened a 30-hour component of mindfulness. There, all the dots connected and I understood that I would bring mindfulness to the corporate world. 

I understood that I would embrace them in my practice and that I wanted to scale my business. I wanted to have a big impact on the companies. It’s different as a consultant to work with two, three, or four companies —   or to create something that is scalable.

At this point, I decided to craft mindfulness-based leadership transformative courses and retreats to offer to the corporate world. I remember the moment that I did it, which was after my Ph.D. I created an opening lecture for everybody to come and listen to. I almost failed because I was so scared as it was my first time. I needed to overcome my fear of how people would react to it, so I learned that I needed to “walk the talk.”

The Meaning of Mindfulness

Doria: Absolutely. You did it and that’s what’s incredible about it. What was the role of mindfulness in your life, personally? My other question is how did you scale? How did that come about? 

Keren: The place of mindfulness in my personal life is going to retreats, practicing various kinds of meditations and Zen Buddhism. I live what I teach. It’s my place that I evolved through and it started with myself. 

I wanted to better connect with my complete self and to feel my different feelings. At the beginning of the journey, I was disconnected from myself. I was working with my mind and connecting to my heart, but it was really scary. I wanted to show up fully and fulfill myself and this life, even if it’s tough with feelings of anxiety, stress, sadness, and vulnerability. 

I decided that I would go with it and live fully. This is my practice of connecting better to myself and increasing my presence. I went to a teacher for three years at a mentorship program. I told them initially that I was coming to this program to increase my “presence” because I want to bring this present to the world and the corporate world. I really believe in walking the talk.

Doria: It was an intrinsic motivation, which is so hugely important. In your early days, you were working on your Ph.D., you were teaching part-time, and you founded your consultancy while you were doing this study. I was wondering if you could flesh out how those things came together. That’s a lot to do at once!

Finding the Balance 

Keren: I had to find the balance. I also gave birth to my first kid: my son. I was breastfeeding and doing my Ph.D. At this time, I put more energy into my Ph.D. in order to finish it. I wanted to bring this wisdom to the world. I ended up taking fewer clients because of that. Each and every moment you have to figure out what are the right priorities for you in order to blend them. I needed to find the right balance.

Doria: Of course, that brings me to my next question. As a woman and company founder, have you faced unique challenges in building your business or being recognized for your leadership?

Challenges as a Woman

Keren: Yes, I think there’s stuff we need to confront that maybe others won’t need to confront. We need to stand up for ourselves, ask for the price and think we’re worth it. At times, I asked myself, “If I was a man, would they ask about the price?” It’s challenging and you need to put boundaries on as a woman. You need to respect yourself, ask for respect, and not let people behave in an unpleasant manner. 

Doria: Absolutely, and I know that many women are told to be smaller, to take up less room, and not rock the boat. Everything you were doing, while very mindful and peaceful, was visionary for the corporate world. I can see how that may have met additional resistance to gender. To your point, I think women do. Almost every woman I’ve spoken to on my podcast says asking for money and asking for my worth is something that they struggle with and something I personally struggle with. It’s a lifelong journey, right?

Keren: Yes. I think this is part of growing, evolving, and understanding what we are worth and asking for it, which is great. I see the transformative process when people are going through my courses and retreats. I know what I bring now. I’m at a point where I really connect to my worthiness. It was a long process.

The Power of Manifestation

Doria: People look at you today and say, “Wow, she’s got this great company. She’s doing these retreats. She has online courses.” They don’t look at what you were doing 15 years ago; the struggle and balancing having a [child] and having to take fewer clients to make that work.

Keren: I see the companies as a reflection of the leaders. As I evolve, increase my presence, learn to set boundaries, and respect myself, this is how it manifests outside with my clients, potential clients, and colleagues. 

I think we need to dare to get out of our comfort zone. You need to invest your energy and be passionate to execute things. It’s not always easy, but we need to invest and show up fully, be in confrontations, and put up boundaries. It’s not always easy, but this is the process now.

Doria: It is, 100 percent. It reminds me of a term I hear often and maybe it’s a bit overused, but kind of manifesting what you want to have in your life and taking action to make it happen. What attracted you to mindfulness as a workplace tool? Was it the two-year study that you did?

Keren’s Calling

Keren: I worked 20 years with firms and managers in the corporate world. I felt something was missing, like a component wasn’t there in order to engage. I felt that people are not seen as a whole or complete person like they were a cog in the machine and there is not enough space for them to show up fully. 

I didn’t know how to say it back then, but something inside of me was calling for something else. To create a place that enables people to show up fully with their vulnerability and abilities. I see the corporate world as a platform for humanity development, and we invest so much of our day in the workplace. For me, the workplace is the ability to enable our employees and colleagues to evolve, grow, and nourish. This is the new part I brought. It was missing because I felt that there was some abuse to the employees that are not seen. I think that’s what got me as a consultant: to search for the missing part.

Doria: You were working a little bit at a time with different companies at the beginning and it kind of evolved over time, the mindfulness aspect of your offering, is that right? 

Keren: Yes, sure, because, as I said at the beginning, I work from this place, but I didn’t call it mindfulness and I didn’t bring practice and tools. I brought myself with my state of mind with my paradigm. When I finished my Ph.D., I understood that I needed to bring these tools to the corporate world and integrate my abilities. This was the present that I brought to the workplace. 

My vision is to change the business world from the inside out to see how, as leaders, we can better serve our employees, customers, and community. From this, we can create better products and services for them, and bring our value. I didn’t know 20 years ago that this is what I would do in my career. 

The Benefits of Practicing Mindfulness

Doria: I love how you so articulately stated your business case. It’s not just about sitting in a room being mindful, although that is important. It’s also the chain effects that it has to get a better return on investment. Because if people are happier, they’re more productive and thoughtful about what they’re doing. It just has exponential effects. It reminds me of preventative medicine versus waiting until someone gets sick and then having to operate on them.

Keren: Exactly, you’re creating the platform for people to evolve and they want to stay with you. It’s a win-win. When I’m happy and fulfilling myself, I’m also bringing added value to the workplace and organization. This is the new part that is important.

Doria: Absolutely. You briefly went over it, but I want to make sure listeners understand —  in what ways can individuals and corporations work with Wisdom To Lead?

Keren: I’m facilitating a mindfulness-based leadership retreat in Napa Valley, California. I offer transformative mindfulness-based leadership courses online and offline in order to expose people to the standard of the connection between the leadership aspect. 

Mindfulness, as you said, is not only sitting and meditating. I found the crucial element of being a mindful leader is the ability to hold the tensions between the long term and short term, between the employee needs and company needs, and mainly between the being mode and doing mode. The ability to do out of listening and the ability to pause, listen, reflect, and then act from the being mode, we can be in a flow state of mind. Investing in minimum effort and gaining maximum results because we really listen to what’s needed and react from this place.

Doria: Listening is an underrated skill. I often see people reacting without really thinking about what’s driving them. I’ve even been in that state before and nothing good ever really comes from that place. With that in mind, could you give listeners an idea of what they can do in their day-to-day life in terms of being mindful in the workplace?

Tips for Practicing Mindfulness Daily

Keren: First, I invite people to reflect and see if they have automatic behaviors that don’t serve them anymore. Once you understand that you feel stuck in your day-to-day or in your work environment, pause and reflect upon it. Try to figure out what’s happening. There may be a boss that pushes your buttons every time you see him and then your body gets constricted. You can listen to him, get angry, and charge them. Instead of acting out your emotion, try to pause, and create this space between the stimulation and a response. Ask yourself, “The next time that I see this colleague, how will I react toward them? Maybe I will take five minutes and then continue the conversation. Maybe I will ask him if we can meet in 10 minutes in order not to react upon my anger. Maybe I can speak my anger.” I invite people to create this space and choose how they want to act with their emotions and feelings. 

The other tool is that you can meditate or take five minutes between meetings. Usually we have back-to-back meetings and we aren’t really present at the meetings, so it’s not worth it. During those five minutes between meetings, you can meditate, take a few breaths, clear your mind and come fresh to the next meeting to be more productive.  

My last tip is to go out in nature for 10 minutes. You can take a walk, clear your mind, and be present with the smells and with what you see. The idea is to be present for 10 minutes and you come back much more energized. It’s small things that you can do during the day to increase your productivity, efficiency, and presence daily. 

Doria: It’s a way to have happiness and be less anxious. I think many worldwide companies are dealing with a remote workforce. There’s some hybrid situations going on, and it seems to be evolving. With that in mind, how can mindfulness be used to increase cohesiveness between remote teams?

How Mindfulness Creates Connections 

Keren: As people are talking remotely, they’re missing the connection part. We want to be connected and know the human part. I invite people to open meetings to check-up. On a scale of 1 to 5, how present are you here with us? People can respond and speak about their experiences. I can say, “I’m really anxious because I have something I didn’t figure out.” Only by saying that, I will be more present. 

Try to create meetings of connections by sharing something personal —  bringing different perspectives enables people to connect. Companies can have a Zoom meeting at 3:00, and whoever wants to join can jump on the call to connect with other colleagues to create the connection that is missing. 

I think it’s important that we’re going to want to achieve our goals. Once we are connected and feel we are seen, then we can be connected in the human aspect, and we will be much more engaged and productive. It’s a crucial element.

Doria: I love that because it also applies to small businesses as it does to larger ones. It doesn’t really cost you anything to have a 3:00 Zoom meeting. I learned this from one of my Gen Z interns when she was leading a meeting, and she said we really need an icebreaker —  which I didn’t think about. I am 53 years old, and even though I like to think I’m aware, I don’t think about being 20, 21, or 22, and that people sometimes are nervous. They’re bringing their scared self into a meeting and having something like an icebreaker, where they find out something trivial about you, makes you more human, and vice versa. Those connections really are incredible.

Keren: Dr. Carl Robin, who was a guest on my podcast, said that you can start a meeting with, “If you had known me, you would have known that.” Give one and a half minutes for each one to show up and share whatever they don’t know about. It’s an amazing thing because then you can connect from a deeper place. It’s through these small games that you can create a bond and people bring their full selves to the workplace. It’s a great practice.

Mindfulness and Self-Care

Doria: I’m going to try that one next week. As women, we tend to balance a lot. Can you tell our listeners if there is anything additional that they can be doing everyday to ensure that they are taking care of themselves as much as they are a wife, mother, worker, or however else they define themselves?

Keren: I really love this question because I think it’s counterintuitive. We need to see and take care of ourselves. We need to have compassion toward ourselves in order to be like this to others. We tend to forget ourselves, and that’s a pity. 

First, I invite people to see what fuels them, like the car that we put gas into, you also need gas. What fuels me might be meeting a friend for coffee or going jogging. Whatever makes me feel great, I should do it, mark it in my calendar and not let it go. Even taking five minutes to start with a meditation in the morning, between meetings, or after lunch. Taking this pause enables us to take a deep breath. We connect with ourselves and are fresher for the rest of the day. 

Another tip is to be less judgmental of ourselves and be more loving to our ourselves. We are human beings and we make mistakes, which is okay. This is a much newer practice, and it’s really challenging to be compassionate to ourselves because we are constantly judging ourselves.

Forgive and Forget

Doria: If we’re high achievers, it’s like we’re perfectionists. Someone told me two years ago that you can forgive yourself. It was for something trivial, but it was mind-blowing to me. I realized that I was carrying around so much guilt for things that I’ve been socialized to feel guilty for. To your point, I really need to take care of myself and I think a lot of women feel the same.

Keren: Yes, because as mothers, we have a lot of guilt and shame. It’s time to let it go and be complete with ourselves. I think we’re also an inspiration for our kids. When we’re complete with ourselves and the idea that I’m not perfect, that’s okay, but I’m doing my best. Once I accept myself and am good with it, it resonates with my children.  

I lead by example, which is why it’s so important to also do it beyond ourselves so that our kids see something different and [don’t] judge themselves every day. It starts within ourselves and mindfulness helps us let go of judgment and be more accepting. It’s a practice and not an easy thing to do. It’s nice to say, but really challenging.

Do Mindfulness Apps Really Work?

Doria: In the U.S., there are a lot of apps —  and I’m sure they are worldwide: Headspace, and Calm are the ones that I know. In your opinion, is there a place for these? I noticed that you offer a monthly subscription to do meditation. What are your thoughts on those?

Keren: I think it’s a great tool for people who want to embrace it daily. The app will facilitate the meditation for them. I believe everyone needs to find what works for them. If it won’t work for you, you won’t implement it. If I need someone to notify me that it’s time to practice my meditation and also facilitate it, that’s great. If I need more people to practice with me because it’s easier for me to practice with a group, that’s also great. I don’t have one thing that I’m pitching. I pitch to listen to yourself and find what works for you. Find the routine that will enable you to take it to the day-to-day.

Doria: Yes, no tool works if you don’t use it. In what you’ve seen in 20 years, could you summarize how mindfulness creates better leaders?

Why Choose to be Mindful?

Keren: Mindfulness enables us to listen to what’s needed right now and not work out of our ego. I can show up more vulnerable, listen to what’s needed, and show up as a human being. From this place, I can do everything and achieve better results. I will listen to what’s needed whether I need to pivot or change my thoughts. I won’t feel insecure to do it, because I will have my anchor. I will have my presence and know my worth. 

I can be in a meeting and listen to my colleagues say, “We think we are not on the right track, this is why.” I will be able to listen to what they’re saying, not be defensive or hold an attachment to my initial way of doing things. It creates more openness and embraces beginners’ minds. It enables us to react to what’s needed now, and not believe in other stories that we are telling ourselves. We can create better things, and better connect with our employees, colleagues, and kids’ community. We create better products and services and bring on added value to the world. 

Doria: Maybe this is a stereotype, and I don’t want to say they’re all male because they probably aren’t, but do you go in and try to do mindfulness training and it doesn’t work for some people?

Mindfulness as an Invitation to a Better Self

Keren: This is an important part of my practice. When I come to organizations, we usually start with an exposure talk. I show them from academia and research, the impact of mindfulness and how it increases our well being, happiness, and creates neuroplasticity. It is an agility mindset. I show them their practice and the data beyond it. 

Afterward, we are practicing one or two meditations and conclude with the benefits. This is an exposure talk and people can connect or disconnect, and that’s okay because I don’t expect them to go into the practice after having this talk. We invite people to attend the course, but it’s an invitation. I don’t force people to do mindfulness, because I don’t believe in it. Mindfulness is a free choice. 

There are people that are ready to embrace these tools in the organization and some of them are less connected, and I always say it’s okay. Bringing mindfulness to the corporate world is like throwing a stone in the river and creating ripples. This is what creates the effect and change. 

I worked with a corporate company. We started with the lecturer, and then we opened the first mindful-based leadership course. After this, people went through a transformation and felt something different. They also wanted to attend this course, so we opened another course and another course.  

I see it as not everybody embraces it at the same level, and I respect that, but I invite people. This is the importance of bringing mindfulness to the business world. It’s inviting people to the arena and not forcing it on them.

Keren’s Mindfulness Training Process

Doria: That makes sense, but as someone at the top, if it’s the executive who says “It’s not for me, but you can do it with everyone else,” is it going to be successful?

Keren: Yes. I’m working with a few companies and we’re starting from the managers of the company, not with the CEO, and not with the most senior managers. That works because it resonates within the company and it started to create a new language in the company and it changed the company. 

I gave a talk and we started with a course and it changed people. It was such a transformative experience. They started talking and other colleagues wanted to come to the course. Then they went to the CEO and told them it changed their life, so other people wanted to attend this course and they opened another. Then, I was invited to work with their senior management team, but we didn’t start with them —   so it can work from the bottom up.

Doria: I would think that would make a lot of sense. I know that in the U.S. and probably worldwide, a lot of women on my podcast who are involved in organizational psychology are [also] involved in diversity, equity, and inclusion. How does mindfulness, and how do you, work within the realm of other initiatives like that?

Keren: As I said before, mindfulness enables us to be open-minded, and respect other people and viewpoints. I give them the transformative experience that they’re going through and then they are much more open to listen to other people and not be attached to their assumptions or viewpoints. It enables the leaders who are going through my courses to go through this transformative experience and create this space for themselves and others. 

Doria: So if I’m hearing you right, it’s like it’s foundational, and then other things can be built onto that, right? 

Keren: Yeah, exactly.

Defining Success?

Doria: What are the metrics that you use to define success within an organization when you work with them?

Keren: It’s the people who give feedback after the course about how it changed their lives. You see a difference in their behavior, a difference between the team members. You see the impact on others because they communicate in a better way. They have difficult conversations and they show up in this area of uncertainty and embrace it and be vulnerable. You see the impact.

Doria: Presumably, at this point, much of your clientele must be referrals, right? That also speaks to how it works, right?

Keren: Yes, this is exactly what’s happening. They give my name, so it’s from word of mouth. That is the best feedback that I can get.

Want to Know More?

Doria: Absolutely. Where can our listeners learn more about you and your business? Do you have additional recommendations for mindfulness for women in terms of resources, such as books or whatever you’d like to share?

Keren: I launched my book this year, which is Mindfully Wise Leadership: The Secret of Today’s Leaders. It’s a practical book that shows how to implement it in every chapter. I give tools for the day-to-day and how to implement them. I show different case studies from different global organizations, like LinkedIn, SAP, Aetna etc. My company is Wisdom To Lead. If they want to listen to the podcast, it’s “Mind Your Leadership.” I talk about implementing mindfulness daily in the corporate world. I’m also on LinkedIn. There are a lot of apps for women who want to start practicing meditation and networks that they can join.

Doria: Yes, that’s a great idea. Thank you so much for coming on today and sharing everything, including your journey and how you’ve gotten to where you are, and how you hope to create a more mindful place.

Keren: Thank you very much.