Check out Selena Rezvani online!

• LinkedIn - Selena Rezvani

• Instagram - @selenarezvani

• Facebook - Selena Rezvani

• Website - selenarezvani.com

Full Transcript:

Note: This is an original transcript–edited for sense, length, and clarity.  If you have any questions or concerns, please email our host, Doria Lavagnino, at doria@sheventurespodcast.com.

Intro: 

Doria Lavagnino: Women make up half the workforce, yet their representation steadily declines as they climb the career ladder. Women comprise 40 percent of managers and only 29 percent of chief executives, according to Catalyst. Today’s guest has spent much of her career specializing. Her latest book, Quick Confidence, is a culmination of bite-sized everyday tips that she originally provided in a LinkedIn newsletter. That went viral and grew to 500,000 subscribers — something that we all wish would happen by accident to us. She’s an award-winning journalist, a TED-Xer, and in leadership development at places like the World Bank, Microsoft, and Pfizer. She’s here today to speak candidly about her new book and provide tips on common scenarios women face professionally. Selena Rezvani, welcome to SheVentures!

Selena Rezvani: Thank you so much, Doria, and thank you for your awesome work — lifting all of us up!

Doria: Oh, it’s one at a time, right?

Selena: Yeah, but these conversations make a difference!

Doria: They do, I agree! I’ve always believed in the power of storytelling and it seems as though you do, as well, as a book author. 

“Super Mom”

Doria: I wanted to start a little bit with your origin story. I was curious, specifically, about any women that were either role models for you or stood out to you in any way.

Selena: My mom is one of those superhuman, incredible people. I lost my dad at a young age; I was 13. My mom was like three parents in one. Anyone who’s ever had a single mom probably knows they’re the masters of doing a lot with a little bit. A lifetime isn’t enough time to thank her. 

Doria: As a mom — and I know you’re a mom, as well — I think it’s in becoming a mother that we realize how much work goes into helping children grow up. Being a single mother, on top of it, is an incredible amount of work. Interestingly, whenever I hear women talk of their single mothers, they always have such positive things to say. 

Selena: It’s such an ultimate balancing act. I have three siblings — 

Doria: Oh, wow!

Selena: It was anything but easy. It’s a beautiful thing when somebody can model strength [and have] the kind of love where they don’t squash who you are, but notice early on and encourage it. What a gift. 

Doria: That is a gift and not easy to do.

Finding a Career Path

Doria: You earned your master’s in social work at NYU, and then you got an MBA at Johns Hopkins. That made me curious. When did you know that you wanted to write books? Secondly, when did you know that you wanted to focus on the workplace and women?

Selena: Well, Doria, I wish I could say it was this thought-out path and strategic. 

Doria: It usually isn’t.

Selena: Right. I opened a lot of the wrong doors. 

I studied social work. I loved so many aspects of it: the diagnostic questions, empowering people, and problem-solving. I thought [it] was wonderful. The issue is I could not leave that work at work. It swallowed me up — I could not leave thoughts of work there. I have the utmost respect for people who can and do that work, but I could not. I had to be honest with myself and say it [was] time to look elsewhere [and] broaden my search. 

Believe it or not, on a very hopeless day of searching, I found the coolest-sounding job. It was applying these social work skills, but to the workplace to help employees raise their voice. It was at a company called Great Place to Work Institute that produces the Fortune 100 best places to work. I applied for the job and got it. It was such a wonderful place to pivot my skills [and] make a difference in a way that was meaningful to me. 

I had mentioned losing my dad. He died of a heart attack. He was like the picture of workaholism. It meant so much to me to be doing something that could reduce employees suffering at work. 

Doria: Wow, that’s incredible.

Selena: Thank you.

Doria: You went into social work [and] had this feeling that it was something that you wanted to do. You liked giving back to others and helping others. I think I would struggle with that, as well — not being able to leave the issues at work, where they belonged. Pivots sometimes happen — I don’t want to say by luck because effort has to go into them — but sometimes we don’t know exactly when we’re going to pivot. This job happened and it ended up showing you what you love. 

Selena: It did. I think sometimes we have that inner knowing that there’s another way to apply these skills, another path for me [and] door I need to try. When it keeps bubbling up, there’s validation there that you’re onto something. I think I needed to finally listen to that. I was so glad I did because it ended up being a very happy home for me. 

Doria: Did you do your MBA while you were working there?

Selena: Yeah, I was in these consulting firms, surveying employees, [and] giving leaders the results. I felt like, as much as I loved the work, I could not speak the language of my clients. I pursued an MBA at night. I kept working because I picked a program that had a little self-directed research. 

I had one female professor, Dr. Lindsay Thompson, and I said, “I know what I want to do. I want to interview top C-level women who’ve made it to leadership.” She said, “Selena, I’ll approve your research request on one condition. You have to go [to] the women you think won’t even entertain an email from you, let alone an interview.” I’m so glad she did [that] because so many of those women said yes. It became my first book, a second book, a business, and a life. Cheers to Lindsay! May we all have and be a Lindsay in our lives! 

How to Confidently Reach Out

Doria: As a journalist myself, that fascinates me. I know that often there’s this fear of anyone who’s a CEO of a Fortune 500 company or Fortune 100 company — you think there’s no way. How did you get in touch with them?

Selena: There were a few ways I approached it. One was to try to use their time well — even in that little email pitch that I was making — [and] respect their time. I came at it being brief and to the point. I called out a specific thing I admired. Rather than saying, “Doria, I really love your work,” saying, “Your words [in that] article — that line really burned, it’s tattooed on my brain — or the specific point you made in a presentation or on a panel.” Be memorable in their eyes and more of a real person. I think [also] telling them exactly what I was asking for and what. “I’m asking for an hour of your time. I’m happy to send the questions. Here’s what it’s all adding up to. The point of this is to help women on their path to leadership to accelerate that path.” It either resonated with people or it didn’t. Many of the women who said yes, they said yes right away.

Doria: It’s such a great how-to. That’s why I wanted to ask you because that’s such a perfect way to approach [it]. I think it’s something that our listeners can benefit from knowing because it applies to business, as well. You always have an ask, but you should know the person that you’re asking of, be respectful of their time, and all of those things. Over time, I’ve realized, that’s not necessarily something people know.

Selena: Yeah, you’re right. Sometimes a well-meaning person might reach out [and] you get the sense it’s a networking meeting, but you don’t know how to best help them. I think you want to set them up to succeed. If you tell them ahead of time, you’re upping your chances.

Doria: Oh, I love that. Yes, absolutely. 

Women in Leadership Positions

Doria: We’ve never had so many educated women — which is wonderful — yet the stats on women’s leadership, while they show some improvement, they’re still pretty dismal. For example, 8.2 percent — I know you must know these inside and out — of Fortune 500 CEOs are women, and 32 percent, or about one in three, is on a board of directors. What is preventing women from achieving parity in leadership positions?

Selena: I think first and foremost, it’s workplaces that have not been re-imagined or revamped to match modern society. I think it’s structural. It’s about conditioning that a leader should only look this one way. He or she who stays in the office longest must be the most dedicated. [That] idea still lives and informs our reward systems — who gets promoted and celebrated at work. I think a huge majority [of it] is around the structure of the workplace and the ways in which it needs to change. I think we, as women, receive lots of cues [and] conditioning to temper our power, authority, agency, [and] make it a little more digestible. I don’t think that helps. 

Doria: I agree, 100 percent. Oh, it’s so true. That coding can be so subtle, but it affects women incredibly, myself included. 

Implicit Bias in Children

Doria: I wanted to go back for a second because I did listen to your TEDx Talk, which was incredible. I loved it.

Selena: Thank you.

Doria: One of the points that really resonated with me as a mother, as well — you mentioned that you have twins. You also mentioned that research states that at the age of 6, young girls start to internalize messaging that their opinions are somehow not as valued. I was curious about [that]. In your own life, have you seen how implicit bias has affected your children?

Selena: Yes, and when I say starting from day one, I mean starting from day one. I mean at my baby shower, before my kids were born [and] I was expecting them. I’m talking about things as simple as the onesies I received, the little clothes and outfits. I could not help but notice how many strong power words like “genius,” “Power Ranger.” —

Doria: Superman.

Selena: Yeah, [and] future president.” [Then,] how passive and lacking the ones on my daughter were “sweet little cupcake.” I thought to myself, “What a black and white, day and night [thing]” and “This is how young we’re talking.” I noticed it and still do.

My daughter is a little taller than my son. The amount of grief that causes them — how [often] the world says, “That’s problematic. Why are you taller than him?” [That’s] even boys’ and girls’ jobs. 

Doria: Right.

Selena: I make a point. My son sets the table. He’s perfectly capable of stacking up the chairs. There are so many small things we can do. One of the most important, no matter your gender, is to speak about women. For example, [talk about] a woman politician on the news in a way that shows respect — not picking her apart [or] critiquing her looks. That’s a normal thing, to pick apart women. I think a powerful thing we can all do is point out the positive when we’re seeing a powerful woman in the spotlight. 

Doria: I really like that. I have two daughters. I didn’t realize how much I had internalized saying, “You’re beautiful.” I was like, “Whoa, Doria, what are you doing?” It’s amazing how much we internalize these things ourselves, right? I love hearing how you’re raising your boy as well as your girl to respect women. [We] can benefit from just slowing down and thinking about what we’re saying, right? It makes a huge difference.

Selena: Absolutely.

Workplace Scenario Guidance

Doria: The topic of your book is confidence. I thought it might be interesting to take a few common workplace scenarios and ask you to guide our listeners on how they might approach these scenarios.

Selena: Love that!

Doria: Okay, the first is: You’re talked over or interrupted in meetings. How can a woman handle that in a way that is direct, gets the job done, but then also isn’t alienating?

Selena: Yeah, and this can be such a drag, right? Sometimes, you’ve just gotten to the good part, and bam — somebody takes over and your point is forgotten. I think what’s important about these techniques is [that] we can use them with other people. We can be allies to other people when we see it happening to them. 

One of the techniques I talk about that can help you [is] keep your confidence. [It] can feel really hard to do if you’re — in my case, a recovering good girl — a little bit of a [people] pleaser. It can feel kind of scary to continue to claim your space in that conversation.

One technique is to carry right on talking. [A] small, not hostile, hand signal [can] almost say, “I’m speaking,” in the famous words of Kamala Harris. 

Another thing we can do is make what I call a nonjudgmental observation. Sometimes it’s possible [that] someone’s not aware of it. There may be that chance — they’re not seeing or aware of [it] — so I think saying something like, “Hey, that’s the third time Hannah’s been cut off. I’d really like to hear the rest of her points.” It’s fact-based. It’s not blaming or full of innuendo. I think that makes it harder to refute. 

Then, one of the things that’s maybe the most underdone [and] underused [is] suggesting that you come up with new meeting norms. Some of the most progressive companies have meeting norms. They don’t assume everyone meets the same way or knows the ingredients of a good meeting; they lay it out for people. They say things like, “Everyone shares,” “Listen more than you talk,” or “One person attends, one person checks in with people on a human being level.” It’s up to you and what might fit with your culture. I think it’s such a great catalyst to say, “How do we want to show up in these everyday forums? Let’s make it really plain and clear for people.”

Doria: Yes, transparency — I think it’s such an underrated tool and so helpful. I was thinking of even the young women that intern [at SheVentures] and those suggestions. I would like everyone to say one thing because it’s about learning how to use our voice.

Selena: That’s right. You bring up such a good point. There are always power dynamics present. If you are more senior, you could be the most perfect leader who’s welcoming and open to suggestions [but] there are still dynamics in the room. People still may hesitate to disagree with you [and] bite their tongue if you said you were supportive of an idea, but they’re not. I love the idea of creating lots of spaces and openings for people to challenge, disagree, and come at it another way. 

Doria: Yes, absolutely. That’s one of the things you emphasize in your TedTalk:  collaboration is key. When you brought up [that] safety bags were created by male engineers. Not including women, unfortunately, happens in so many different ways. 

Selena: It really does. We can spend our lives retrofitting things to accommodate women or, the better solution, we can include them from day one on creating new products, services, medicines, or whatever it may be. I’m so passionate at the table early and often in ideation [and] in the R and D processes — and not waiting until we’re on the 2.0 or 3.0 to think, “Oh, this doesn’t fit women.”

Doria: Yeah, exactly. It’s such a huge oversight. It’s hard to understand, but in a way, not so hard to understand. 

Okay, let’s say that you have trouble negotiating and you want to go to your boss and ask for a raise. You’re terrified of asking for what you have researched that you’re worth. How would you recommend approaching that conversation?

Selena: First of all, good on you for having the wherewithal to research it and the confidence to get yourself to that negotiating table. One helpful thing you can do is be the smartest person in the room about your going rate. This is really hard for people because there’s no one magic number in a file cabinet that says “Selena Rezvani,” on it to find and then [has] irrefutable data. It’s always going to be subjective. I think that’s maybe lesson one. 

I would make sure you’re getting data from different sources. For example, take that call from a headhunter who’s interested in you to get a sense of the going rate for somebody with your skills and experience. I think that’s a really important data point. If you have a salary study in your industry, whether that’s medicine or advertising or salary.com or something more generic. I’d come with that data. Of course, do your own competitor analysis. What do people like you in companies [of] similar size and geography pay? 

One really helpful thing is to stand in the other person’s shoes. Before you get in that room, how can you think about and maybe empathize a little bit with their world perspective? For example, what are their most pressing goals? What are their passions within the organization? Maybe they care about being a top employer. What are their struggles? If there’s any way in your pitch for more money, responsibility, or like an expanded role, can you further one of their goals? Could you alleviate one of their pain points? Could you further a passion or interest of theirs? If you can do that, with even one of those things, your request becomes a lot more yes-able. It moves the conversation from “me, me, me,” [and] “Can I have … I want … I need to …”

Doria: Such a great suggestion. I love that. 

Confidence and Imposter Syndrome

Doria: This is something I have experienced — I think a lot of women do — imposter syndrome. It prevents you from either contributing to meetings or going after whatever it is that you feel that you want to go after. How can building one’s confidence help with imposter syndrome?

Selena: Yeah, what a topic close to my heart. It’s really what my book, Quick Confidence, is dedicated to — that feeling of doubt that can creep in. I want to get one thing straight and that’s to say the most confident people don’t live a life that’s free of self-doubt. They have self-doubts [and are] people who embody confidence. It’s how they work through it. It’s almost about finding your inner Ted Lasso, your supportive coach, and [the] channel you can tune into. That’s going to help you overcome even the absence of doubt. It’s the ability to say, “I can predict that I’ll be successful at this. If I can’t, I can find my way through it and that’s enough.” That can be enough to get you to take on that exciting challenge. 

Doria: Those are great suggestions. I think we often think everyone else is confident, except for us. I think all of us have insecurities and it is how you choose to deal with them that makes the difference over time. [Also] having a community of mentors and like-minded women and male allies, makes a difference. 

Selena: Yes, I think it does make a difference. I think comparison is one of the worst detrimental [and] damaging things. [It’s] a look that we can get stuck in. I think we’ve all done it. It’s a good thing to be careful of. Often, we do it with people who we perceive have more followers [or] success than we do. We often don’t think about all the things that came before that success or alongside [it]. 

Doria: Exactly. It reminds me of something that a number of successful women have told me. They’re like, “If you really want to know how someone achieved what they did, look at where they were 10 years ago and what they were doing then because that’s how they got to where they are today.” It’s not as if they flipped a switch and suddenly ended up writing three books. 

Selena: Right, and I love that your podcast creates a forum for this. It’s so meaningful when women talk about their mistakes with other women. I think we get so much from it. We have to trust that there have been days that amazing women we look up to hid under the covers and ate a bag of Milano cookies and drank rosé to deal with pain [and] rejection. 

Women in the Workplace

Doria: Yeah, absolutely. We’ve talked a lot about women, but I want to turn it to what you were talking about initially, which is organizations themselves. You’ve worked within a lot of them. This is a generalization, but I was curious, how many would you say you are approaching gender parity as something that they truly care about? For how many of them [is] it more of like a “check the box” type of initiative?

Selena: I would love to report that it’s a higher number of genuine change-making organizations. I think there’s really strong intentions [for] at least half of the organizations to do good or better, make a difference, be welcoming and inclusive to women. I think things fall short.

I think one of the ways is we don’t center [on] women’s voices themselves. We might say, “I think women would stay here longer and we could retain them if we did X or introduced ABC  benefits.” We don’t center [on] their voices and unvarnished take on the workplace. I think that’s priority one: not just applying solutions and looking at that in an intersectional way, [but] looking at race and ethnicity. Every organization I go into, I find it’s drastically different and considerably worse for women of color. 

Doria: Yes, absolutely. That’s something that, on the podcast, it’s been so important for me is [to] — as much as I can — get as many different points of view as possible from an intersectional perspective. It does matter. If a leader were to do the groundwork and ask women, would we hold that leader accountable for whether change has happened or not?

Selena: I think there are different ways. There’s certainly setting an ambitious goal around representation. For example, in leadership, management, and holding people [accountable] to those goals — even leaders and managers in their performance reviews. Employee engagement data is really important to see an upward trend with inclusive behaviors that people feel they can get a fair shake, be compensated fairly, [and] have equal promotion chances as the next person. That data is really important. Boards of directors [hold] leaders to that; that’s considered a failure if those results decrease, for example. 

I think there are other more cultural norm-type ways we can look at it. For example, in every culture I go into, I ask, “Who is celebrated?” Nine out of 10 times, they are men in organizations; they tend to be men who demonstrate incredible gymnastics when it comes to overwork, long hours, [and] insane travel. Organizations don’t even know we’re celebrating [that] or that’s the pattern in who we celebrate. 

I’d really like to see more courageous stories shared — maybe the person who doesn’t center work in their identity [or] the person who leaves loudly at 5 p.m., not ashamed, slinking out and trying to hide it, but unabashedly has a life outside of work. There are so many other stories we could celebrate — and more women leaders who are powerful and unapologetic about that power who we need to celebrate.

Doria: Yes. You remind me [of] some of the women leaders that I’ve spoken to. They talk about work-life balance and how for many of them it’s  “top-down” — I don’t like that phrase — but they ensure that they are manifesting that [for] themselves so that everyone around them also feels comfortable with that same idea. It sounds similar to what you’re saying. 

Selena: Yeah, it’s so powerful. You need to see it to be it. It’s incredible when you see a leader with boundaries willing to say, “No, I’m not going to stay semi-plugged in on my vacation. I will be off and I trust you to make decisions in my absence.”

Doria: Absolutely! 

Quick Confidence

Doria: I have two final questions before we learn more about where listeners can find you and your books. One is — your new book is called Quick Confidence — are there fast ways of becoming more confident in the workplace or life?

Selena: There is! There are several things you can inhabit that are smaller actions. They’re not always these big swings [that] we need to take. One that I love for doubling your social confidence is to adopt what I call the “dog code.” What I mean is when you go to somebody’s house and they have a dog, what does that dog do when you walk in the door?

Doria: Usually barks, right? That’s what mine does.

Selena: Okay, how about when you come in?

Doria: When I come in … Oh, it comes up to me. [It’s] very friendly. 

Selena: Yeah, exactly. It’s like, “What do they not do?” They don’t talk it over with their friends. They don’t overthink it. They simply are willing to be the first. I think there’s something really powerful we can take from that when it comes to social confidence, which is habituating being the first. It’s like [when] your parents taught you not to talk to strangers — talk to strangers! Why not be the first to smile at somebody at a party and extend your hand? Why not be the first to say hello to a small circle of people at a networking event? How about being the first to welcome that newcomer at your company and say hello and be friendly? When you habituate that, it’s amazing what it can do for your confidence; you see yourself as an initiator of making connections and it starts to feel normal, which is really cool. 

Doria: I love that. I’m introverted. I don’t like networking meetings, so I’m going to try that next time. I’m going to smile and do my best to do it first. I am very much someone who, in those situations, would prefer that someone come up to me — but why? I could see how that would really make me feel more confident and in control. 

Selena: Yeah, I think so. It can change how you see yourself because you’re leading with action when you do that. We make it almost a habit — kind of like brushing your teeth. Most of us don’t think twice about brushing our teeth. We just do it [and] get it done. It kind of frees you up and your mental space to do other things. 

Looking Back

Doria: Love it. Looking back on your career to date, what would you say is one thing you are really proud of and one thing that either you regret or feel was a mistake?

Selena: What a great question! I think I’m proudest of the times I did it afraid. I have that voice in my head that’s quite critical and harsh. I even named her Marjorie. 

Doria: I love that!

Selena: I think the times I’ve been proudest, I heard that critical voice in my head saying, “Write a book? What makes you think you should do that? What makes you think you have enough to say? Is [now] the right time?” We can live in that world where we discount every contribution we want to make — every bold, exciting step we want to take forward. I think doing it while afraid [and with] the doubts, might be [a] huge act of courage. I applaud anyone willing to do it afraid. 

The largest study on regrets has recently been done. One of the top two regrets are regrets of not acting with boldness. It’s a big reason I wrote this book, Quick Confidence. I want to see people [with] boldness. I regret those times I talked myself out of something [and] said, “They’re experienced enough [and] credentialed. They should do it. They know more.” I underestimated what I could do. It’s really become my life’s mission to help people own [their] strengths. 

Doria: Yes, and as women — as we’ve talked about — we get so much external information and stigma. That already is a layer of stuff that we have to kind of take and get through it. Then, as you said, do it afraid but do it. I don’t think I’ve ever regretted that either — when I’ve done it, even when I was afraid. 

Selena: That’s right, none of it will be wasted. I love the idea of you’re either going to win or you’re going to learn. Taking a different approach to fails, face-plants, and worries of not succeeding — maybe that’s not even one of the big options, depending on how we choose to frame it. We always have a choice. 

Doria: That is a great point. I will give that some thought because whenever I ask this question, I always struggle with the word. I’m like, “I don’t want to say ‘regret.’ I’m not quite sure what I want to call it.” I like the way that you framed that. That’s very well said. 

More About Serena

Doria: Where can listeners find out more about you, your books, and your work?

Selena: You can find Quick Confidence anywhere books are sold. I hope you’ll check it out and give me your feedback. You can also go to my website, selenarezvani.com. You’ll see there’s a Confident Communicator Action Plan — [for] somebody who feels like words sometimes falter and wants a good comeback or verbal self-defense. Follow me on social media. I put leadership content out every day. I look forward to hearing your thoughts and comments there.

Doria: I love that. Thank you so much for your time.

Selena: Thank you, Doria. Thanks for all you’re doing.